[WIP] The Realm Community Balance Mod

I always felt it was more of a problem late game though so its more about build time due to the low metal cost of the holkins means you can put a few out rather fast.

I was bombarding @Arachnis with 2 holkings yesterday and he was still coming on top. He sniped one, but never reacted to the other one and still he was winning, until I sent in the orbital redemption in the form of an orbital commander drop. The damage a singe holkings does isn't that great because half of the times it misses.

Actually you need a full T2 energy generator (Holkings drains 10k energy IIRC).

And stall really hard. I had two yesterday and I was quite struggling to feed them, even at 30 minute mark.

50,000. But it only drains at (functionally) 5000 E/s, shooting once every 10 seconds.

The Holkins seems very much O.K. atm. We can debate about whether the energy and/or metal cost should be higher. But there are many things you can do against it. Either you snipe it, or you stall their energy, or you just ignore it.

In case of ignoring it, even against two or more Holkins, you can simply rebuild what they destroy. Because they are doing damage in a rather inconsistent way, you will lose 3-4 energy plants or a factory only once in a while.

They aren't really able to hit your metal extractors, because they just miss most of the time. And in this mod metal is imo more important than energy.

You have to use a little bit more micro than usual when facing Holkins, but I think that they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do.

Greetings

Indeed. If you want to do any real damage with an artillery, take a Catapult.

The Holkins is a bit difficult. From a purely objective standpoint, it misses more often than it hits, costs as much as a Hawaiian island, and requires the energy output of a small nation to keep at maximum fire-power. But, it can hurt someone on the other side of the planet. Not destroy or cripple, but simply hurt.

It isn't a game ender and at most I have seen it tip balances rather than turn tides. But then, that's not the main point of the Holkins, is it?

The main point is that it is the single most frustrating thing to ever have happen to you, relative to the amount of damage it does. Its psychological effect on a player is substantially greater than it's mechanical effect on the game. I have watched good players go into paroxysms of rage that their opponent has dared insult them with a Holkins. I have watched players throw torrents of bombers through shredding flak-storms, and hurl wave after wave of units against stalwart defences, just to be rid of that one god-damned Holkins. And in doing so, they put themselves at a massive disadvantage. In the end, it is not so much the Holkins that finishes such players off, but their own desperation and clouded judgement.

I'm not 100% sure this is the best way for things to be, as it is perhaps disingenuous to have a unit which players view as disproportionately powerful compared to what it actually is. But I think (most tentatively) that I like it. I like the fact that it is more a player's response to a Holkins that determines their fate, rather than the Holkins itself. To me that seems like good counter-play.

I think the basic concept of the Holkins as we have it is fairly solid. However there is always room to examine options in terms of how well we have executed that concept. If there are are any good replays of Holkins related games, then I would like to see them. For now though, I think the Holkins should stay as it is.

I am, of course, always willing to hear counterarguments.

Yes, I have one. Not to the Holkins being how it is, but rather that its current effect on the psyche of the individual is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen in an RTS game.
I believe it is a beautiful thing because it ruins those who cannot control their pride, as you say, how dare they insult us with their Holkins? It is a humbling and beautiful unit because it wields so much presence yet truly pressures little.
My own vendetta in favor of this is the fact that so many in past games I have played called something OP when it was objectively not, when it was not truly viable against any competent opponent. These tend to be explosive weapons, as they are viewed much in the same light, with the same mentality, and shotguns.
It's okay that we share these secrets, right? The playerbase isn't going to riot because they think something shouldn't exist when the only thing it affects is the mind/playstyle, right? I'm truly grateful that, especially with a mod like this, we can get away with awesome things and oppressive weapons being viable because we have such an informed playerbase. My thanks for this awesome mod.

I played RCBM for a little while now and I have some suggestions:

1. T1 air fighters seem to be stronger when microed a lot. That shouldn't be the case imo.

2. Boom bots should be stealthed and T2. When they're T1, they seem to be used too much, if they're T2 they seem to be not used enough. So I'd suggest making them T2 and stealthed. The observation tower shouldn't be the appropriate tool against one unit only (stealth bombers). Also I'd find it nice to have like a specialized "commando" ground to ground unit.

3. The new skitter seems like a very strong early-game raiding & scouting unit.
Maybe the bot factory should have a similar kind of unit?

4. The satellite tracking interplanetary travel is not really a "good unit" imo. You just build it once every game, and that's all you need. It's not really a choice, but rather mandatory to build it when there is interplanetary travel. I have no fix for that in mind, but it's the same problem the advanced satellite in vanilla has: you build it once and you can see everything.

The following points are more like wishful thinking, and somehow I have the feeling, that it wouldn't be possible to implement without Uber doing it first:

5. Planet to planet artillery.
Artillery like the Holkins is usually being used to pressure the opponent into attacking and to break stalemates.
The most common stalemates occur, when different people have control over different planets. Sometimes orbital invasions are just not enough and take a long time to actually accomplish something. That is not only a problem of this mod, but of PA in general. So, to break stalemates on an interplanetary level, interplanetary artillery would be awesome to have. I don't think superweapons like the nuke should be the tool of choice in situations like this. Nukes should never be the first choice for anything in my opinion.

6. Prefabbed factories.
That has been mentioned a lot of times. I think it would be really nice, if you could prebuild factories on the orbital layers, and then drop them somewhere. Would be awesome for surprise attacks and for attacks on other planets. In conjunction to this, I'd make teleporters consume a grand amount of energy. They distort time and space, it's only natural to me that they'd consume energy like there's no tomorrow.

7. And at last: The Megabot.
I think that would be very awesome. Ofc it would be balanced by you guys, so no danger of it being overpowered. Maybe make it being built on the orbital layer too, and then drop it on a planet of your choice.

That's all. The first four points are serious, while the last three are more like me dreaming xD

Greetings

Thanks, that's a very good reply. Let me address it per point.

1. This is something we have noticed. We don't yet have a fix for it that would feel right. I personally think increasing the firing arc would be a good idea, but last time I presented that idea it was disagreed on by the rest of the team.

2. I have just been thinking the same thing about the boom bots. I do fully agree on your point about the stealth units.

3. We have discussed that before, but it remains to be seen that the final course of action will be.

4. Te problem with what you are suggestion is the way orbital radar was implemented. We would very much like to have a limited range orbital radar, but with the current implementation it all or nothing. Our hands are tied there.

5. We have tried that. Unfortunately it only works on staged projectiles (missiles and torpedoes).

6. We have had some talk about this in the past, the opinions were very spit and I cannot confirm nor deny that this is something that may someday be implemented.

7. While I do find a giant epic unit appealing we are generally against making units big unless they need to be. This of course doesn't mean that there 100% won't be a megabot of sorts in the future.

Another note: I have presented your case about the Cougar to the team and we have decided that more testing is required. I will do some controlled tests in a sandbox environment later but if you have anyone you trust, it would be nice to do some goames where player A goes bots only and player B tries to counter them with only cougars.

We are aware of this issue, but I am not sure how to combat it. I think at the moment we are limited by what Uber have given us. At least the advantage they get from good micro isn't game breaking.

I am happy with the balance of bomb bots, but not the usage. There are still things that we can try to make them see more action. I think a little bit more experimentation is needed before we begin to think about changing the unit itself.

Extra units are planned. We have lots of ideas, but decent models take time. New ideas are always welcome. As for megabots, we do have a few interesting ideas. However I doubt they will be taking the same form as experimental from ta/supcom.

Also, thanks for the feedback.

Taking the experimental roles of TA? Oh you don't want a severely overpriced and under powered "super unit"?

But yeah, I don't know if I even consider the Krogath an experimental.

On a more serious note- I'm guessing you mean you don't want any form of super unit that can pretty much fill any role much too well? A generalist of Uber Proportions let's call it.

Every unit will be the size and shape that it requires to do its job. Should a unit require a massive size then it will be. All of this is rather moot for RCBM however, since a mega-bot is far from a minimum effective solution.

As we've said before there are probably going to be 5 completely new units in RCBM, and no more.
You've seen 3. We're working on 4 and we have a few likely candidates for the the "high-concept" on 5.

Don't hold me to that though, since there's a little debate on whether number 4 is even required, despite the work that's already been done on it. We're lacking the hooks to make it work as we intend it to at present, so it's definitely up for review as to whether we can make it functional in the current environment (which I have doubts about).

It will likely appear in our Unit expansion Pack though if it doesn't make the cut for RCBM, when we have the hooks to do the high-concept of the unit justice.

Just wondering, will there be possible extra "expansions" for your mod. Lets say the base mod doesn't have something like super units but there could be a optional add on in the future that wouldn't usually be used in a competitive sense.

Lots.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1SsQS-5rfFJL8oThcho3r59xvj-sWVkCa7nwiF_rsgJY/

We really need to get that made up into something more professional looking

Man, can't wait to give them a try. The models Knight makes are always so great looking, and I love that little Hal 9000 aesthetic you've guys have got going with the eyes, PA already has the little red bits on them.. but you guys set them up at the front rather than just randomly off everywhere.

Why do Gunships get a whole expansion devoted to them...wouldn't that be a unit..

There are so many types of gunships!

Also I believe there plan is that you can mix and match them, so you can use lol the expansions together nd such. But don't quote me on that, it may be false.

Something like that. I don't know the details on that one, but last I hears there will be multiple gunships.