Why an in game ladder is more important now than later.

For one reason:
It isn't offered and easily accessible in-game, and not everyone uses it.

Er, not really.
1.0 will bring in a lot of new players, playing with randoms will devolve into a bunch of new players being torn to shreds by people who've been with PA since beta.

Fair point, so maybe a more constructive approach would be to persue getting things like pa stats more accessible so players can use it easily.

Imo a currated 'key mods' section built into pa itself would go a long way to sorting this, and as pa's ui is essentially a website, shouldn't require masses of work...

I've to say. I've opened that link and forgot. Read it a bit later. And I was totally convinced it was about PA, and not SMNC.

Frankly it sounds like the two projects have lot in common.

I think it's a good thing the community cares about features at all? You actually could delay forever, since the release date is perpetually in the future until the team says otherwise... From my perspective, I think of 10 minute 1v1s, heck, even 10 minute 2v2 or 3v3 if the opponent is noob enough, are frankly boring. I think that integral features, not confirmed, are the features the game needs before release. I honestly believe this is one such feature.

The main thing which I think concerns a lot of people is that up until now, when people have had complaints about the game, we've been able to say "It's Early Access, game is incomplete, Uber will fix this before release, etc. etc." - after release you'll be marketing PA as a released game (and I'd be surprised if you didn't do a fair bit of marketing around the release).

If there are shortcomings in the game at release, we as a community will have a lot fewer weapons in our arsenal to defend the game and you. A lot of people have invested a lot of time and emotion into PA and don't want to be put in the position where they can't defend it.

That's my synopsis of the situation at any rate. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but I feel like the above rings true for a good portion of the active forum base.

This is indeed true.

But I fear there might also be some people like me.
I have been defending PA quite a lot as well on other forums but I will not be able to do so after release.
Not only because it will be harder, but because I wouldn't be able to do so with a good conscience.
If someone complains about PA being broken and unfinished during development there is a good chance he simply doesn't understand how game development works.
If someone complains about PA having bugs, issues and missing features after release, he is simply complaining about having bought a game that doesn't come close to what he expected and there is a good chance that Uber's marketing will have led him to believe that PA was greater than it really will be at the point of release.

I won't try to defend PA from those people. I will simply tell them that their points of critizisms are right and that we can only hope for Uber to fix them.

We clearly all want that the game live long.

With single player, you plays few month and then jump to another game.

Today games that keep players playing are multi player games highly focused on competitive plays.
Uber is aware of that and have shown from the start of development that they really cares about competitive play.

Although, a multi player ladder is useless if the game is not correctly finished ans polished.

They're now focused on finishing this core game aspect to release. I'm sure they'd loved to add multi player ladders if they could but sometimes you have to released the game. Having no publisher does not mean that you can delay the game forever, economic reality still here.

Like you all, I'm disappointed that they're will be no ladder on day one but I've to agree that is less important than a well polished game.

Also remember, that you can have fun in multi players without ladder just by playing with friends...
*** insert some old LAN parties nostalgia here ***

Aside that Uber already proved otherwise. They did it with SMNC, dropping it as soon as they started the development of PA.

In this optic I'm wondering if the Toy Rush interference into the weekly update for PA could be read as an early signal.

I'm aware I may be overly provocative. But where are the answers to our legitimate questions about the future of PA?

The answer is always the same: "The release is just the beginning."

As if they had a crystal ball that assures them that PA will sell well lots of copies.
There is a chance that it won't, and if that happens, they will drop it just like they dropped all of their previous games.
Not because they are evil, but because they have to to survive.

Let's just hope that their hopes come true and they will be able to continue developing PA for a long time...

Improvements to the lobby could see noobs not getting stomped. Just need to have 1v1 1800-1900 rated game rooms etc.

For an official uber ladder to work we also would need much better maps. This to me is more important than the ladder.

If enough players played with pastats colacolin has said he could easily add matchmaking with rankings. Maybe uber temporarily/ permanently using pastats could be a nice compromise and save face.

From here it would be easy to reset illmaren pastatsladder or set up a new one on a uber page. Doesn't seem like a lot of work and am sure there would be many volunteers to solve a pretty big issue for many players.

The point of PA is not about having a fair match, and with the balance the way it is on the PTE, it doesn't matter as much early game.

Well the point of any game I play is to have fun. If I started this game and played some of the top 20 players on my first few games I wouldn't have any fun.

What you mean about the balance of the PTE? Do you mean it is easy to learn or just that you don't think it's balanced?

I can totally imagine people getting crashed when they are brand new feel like they got to relocate a mountain with only a spoon as shovel. Matchmaking will help in keeping the fun in the game for those players so they can get better at the game playing against people who are on more similar skill level.

They've actually been explaining SMNC not getting updated after they started PA some more over the past couple days over in the SMNC, basically explaining how dire things actually were always for SMNC, and that they only dropped updating it because they had no choice (though they still leave the servers up despite them losing money every month).

Here's what Bob Berry (Uber's CEO) had to say about it on reddit

And Scathis also spent a fair while in this thread (https://forums.uberent.com/threads/what-could-uber-have-done-better-do-better-next-time.60805/page-3) answering questions about the game, design decisions, why they did what they did and why there were things they couldn't do.

The early game eco the commander generates is more than enough to keep 4 factories pumping out units at 100% eff. for about 4 minutes. (with a few extra mex and a Pgen)

Someone should start a thread that allows us to list the features we feel in order of importance are missing from the game. Then we should all respond with our own lists. You compile those results and you should have a few things that we all feel are more important than others. Then Uber will at least know which ones we value the most as well as the ones that people don't care as much about.

This is what I expect to change:

The moment you release you put up a big neon sign saying REVIEW ME!! Those reviews help determine how many new players join our ranks, and everyone on these forums wants that number to be HUGE! We really want this to be a massive success so you guys make oodles of cash and keep developing all the cool features we want to see. We want it so that in the future when people are discussing the best, most ground-breaking games of all time, PA is in that list.

The general public will view and discuss it as a completed project. Most of these people don't and never will read the forums, and of those who do, most have no clue how software development works. Doesn't matter what you're planning for v1.1, most people will judge PA on v1.0. Hell to a lot of them, the idea there will even BE a v1.1 won't even enter their heads.

This is why I'm so keen on the ladder being implemented before release - I want close, even games against other people, and I want those newcomers to have the same. Right now I can beat the AI on the top difficulty provided that I finish the game within 10-15mins; more than that and it'll start to run away from me. I've a few friends who've got beta access but I can destroy them every time.

However if I join public games, people like Mered, Clopse, Burntcustard will probably trounce me as thoroughly as I do my friends. If you rate player skill from 1 (newbie) to 10 (best), I'm probably a 2.5-3 - I can expect to lose most public games, and some of them will be over very, very fast. On the flip side I'll be beating the 1-ratings very quickly too. I'm not overly interested in trying to improve my rating / ladder position, I just want to be able to play people of about the same skill.

Alternatively I can play vs the AI. As I've already said I can beat the hardest one in a short game. The longer the game goes on, the more there is to keep track of and the more likely I'll lose. But those long games are the fun ones - that's where the nukes are, the massive armies can be found, the planet smashes happen. Play a 1hr game on a 4-planet system and the AI can still keep track of everything; we mere mortals sure as hell can't!

omw dis uber pls do

My grain of salt on the ladder point.

Remember that a LOT of players do not like to play competitive (with a ladder).
They just want to play for fun (against IA or friends)(this is completly my case)(and these friends are real life friends, i have no online friends).
So having a working ladder is not SO important in a global "player satisfaction" point of view (competitive are a fraction of the playerbase).

However, what one must not forget, is that it's the Competitive MP that builds your legacy.
Watching the top players fight and tear each-other appart in close call matches create a lot of hype, emotions, interest.

If you want your game to be popular and long-lived, you have to show-off. And to show off you need something to show.
Pretty Nuke or Com' Spawn effects are nice for the retina, but after the first few it become banal and people are not impressed anymore.
However, they are impressed about nice battles. Hype. This attract new players, that talk about the game to friends, that buy the game and so on.

So for a multiplayer game to have success, it must have a non competitive mode, a ladder and be balanced so the top players can express themself in a lot of ways.
Without this, any MP focused game take a huge risk.

Now, if Uber hope to live from the "single player" part of the game, screw the balance and ladder.
They are not needed.
Just add some fairness in Galactic War (make each match possible to win, very important, players don't like unfair/impossible games nor having the impression of getting screwed by randomness), a few shiny effects to make pretty screenshots and videos.
Maybe even a few unlockables via special objectives (but please, no grinding, this is not a MMO or a free to play).
Et voilà. Ready to go.

Now if the plans of Uber is to live from BOTH sides, ouch, won't be easy to reach that goal at the same time.
Personnally, i would recommand bug fix and MP over the rest.
SP can still be added later with no real hurt to the playerbase, while a bad MP will drive away the competitors, and they will probably not come back.

Edit : adding a link to movra's old but excellent post about players type.
I would especially recommand the "Timmy, Johnny, and Spike Revisited" and Ghost Master Post Mortem links.

Yay, wall of text...