What if micro pigs... are just shaved guinea pigs?

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by burntcustard, September 10, 2014.

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Should this kind of micro be in the game?

  1. Yes

    24.1%
  2. No

    17.2%
  3. To some extent

    39.7%
  4. OMGWTFBBQ

    19.0%
  1. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Basically it auto builds units for you and essentially manages your eco. No powering off or on micro, no queuing up on each additional factory you build and turning on infinite mode etc.

    You could even further mod it to automatically add factories to predefined hotkey groups for you. It's really powerful. Questionably so, but that is for another thread.

    I don't use it either like you, but it is a definite handicap not to use it.

    If the community doesn't feel like auto factory is a cheat or hack, then i don't see how we can stop auto dox micro mods.
  2. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    But at the same time you will think you have more than you actually do to spend. I've found myself without an army because I put too much into fabbers because Auto Factory was saving me from stalling... through not building an army.
  3. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Was everyone aware, in every tournament up to now, that there is a "hotkeys 2"?

    Everyone who won a tournament used it. Everyone who won a tournament has an illegitimate victory, they played against some players somewhere down the line that didn't know about all the client mods available, except PAStats because it is a requirement.

    Who would get PAStats as a requirement and fail to use other mods? Well, I know every tournament the Realm has people interested in joining for the first time and ask what the proper "competitive" mods to use this build are, and even how to setup hotbuild 2 because it isn't obvious from install anymore since conflicts with default hotkeys.

    Sorry Elodea, he says none of your victories so far count :(

    So if the very least of what you are saying, is it is possible that not everyone knows about mods, then the solution is simple. Ban the automation mods from tounr... HAHAHA you actually thought I could say that with a straight face... yea, no... What you ought to do, is mention in the tournament that they are explicitly allowed and if you can't handle it then install or gtfo.
  4. burntcustard

    burntcustard Post Master General

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    Do you mean hotbuild 2? I've won a few tournaments without hotbuild...

    Did use a modified auto-factory that auto-forever-built Dox as soon as the factory was done for a while though ;)

    I think this thread may have gone a little off topic lol.
    thetrophysystem likes this.
  5. mot9001

    mot9001 Well-Known Member

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    Its already pretty complicated it seems there is way more mods then i knew off.
  6. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    You mean you don't know PAMM lists the damn things? AND that, as mods, they modify the game and that any part of their code in return can be modified? (like burntcustard's personal version of autofactory forever from now deemed "auto dox")

    @burntcustard I didn't say they were OP and you couldn't win against it. Well, I did say it doubled manpower so it isn't technically fair. But the point is, anyone can beat anyone else using an automation, it doesn't make too big a difference in the grand scheme of things. Nobody plays this game, tournaments especially, vanilla anyway. You NEED PAStats for most tournaments anyway, required or disqualified.
  7. trialq

    trialq Post Master General

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    It's not feasible to make an elaborate auto-micro mod on the client. Such a thing could possibly be made on the server, although it may require some pretty deep modding, and as it's on the server that case can be considered "intended".

    The things that can be automated on the client are anything the player can do (key presses, mouse movements and clicks), and off the top of my head that's it. Basic decisions can be made based on information available (for example auto factory checks the state of the eco) and screen reading (screenshot and analyse). Interaction is done via the views into the game the player uses, which means any micro must be done as a player does it. No out-of-view micro is possible. You can't do things in game coordinates, only screen coordinates (the UI is given 2D views into the world, all the juicy stuff is far away from the bits we can mod). The game doesn't tell you when a unit fires. You'd have to constantly screenshot the game to detect projectiles, figure out their trajectory, what unit fired them, if it was an enemy unit, what they fired at, if it's your unit they're firing at, if there's something in the way etc. A 3D world (with a tilted, zoomable, orientable camera) and simulated projectiles does not make for an accurate estimation given a 2D view. You'd have to basically recreate the simulated projectile physics given best-guess figures, with a variable time from when something fired to when you noticed it fired; and being unable to distinguish projectiles if they are close or cross over (you'd have to get at least two screens of the projectile to estimate trajectory, probably more). Basically this would be godlike to achieve in this way:


    A basic version of micro may be possible but still hacky, and pretty useless. Maybe a "wiggle around here" command (that must be the tooltip btw), that would only work if the camera stays there (so you might as well wiggle them yourself).
    elodea likes this.
  8. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Then don't build so many fabbers :p. If two people built the same amount of fabbers and one person used auto factory and the other didn't, the auto factory guy will still have advantage.

    But really, in relevance to the thread topic, it's more like when you get two people dox dancing against each other, the person with auto factory will always have a huge advantage because he doesn't need to keep going back to base to set production queues.
  9. mot9001

    mot9001 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, yeah that looks like an unfair advantage to me. I think i prefer vanilla because its equal for all.
  10. rivii

    rivii Well-Known Member

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    As far as I am concerned the only mods that should be available for use in a tourney is PAstats, Hotbuild2 (for your hotkeys unless there is some other magic atwork with this) and System Share.

    You wanna be the best of the best? than learn to play! and don't let some mod play half of the game perfectly for you. That just shows your incompetence on playing the game by yourself.

    Just my opinion..
  11. stevenrs11

    stevenrs11 Active Member

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    This discussion about cheating is silly.

    "Cheating" is simple for a game like PA- if you do something against the rules, then it's cheating. If it's not against the rules, then it's not cheating. Done. End of story.

    Is an auto micro (assuming it is possible, which I doubt without server side stuff) mod cheating? No, it's explicitly allowed.

    Should it be cheating? Will it become cheating? Totally different questions.
    Quitch likes this.
  12. rivii

    rivii Well-Known Member

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    In my book cheating is and always will be giving a player an advantage to skip a certain mechanic (read, aiming - Eco management, micro) that is used in the vanilla game. Wether or not the game bans it is irrelevant. Some games don't detect aimbots so in that case its not cheating and everyone should use it.. wierd logic.

    Yeah PA is super moddable and it great. there however need to be some rules en regulations on mods in tourney style. It is ridiculous.
  13. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Sounds retro, like a cod classic counterstrike leet aimor proz.

    I can be more retro, I define cheating as pressing a series of buttons to get extra eco or free men.

    uMad?
  14. rivii

    rivii Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me you want to take the easy and in my opinion illegitimate route to the top of the ladder/Tourney.

    Edit: Instead of doing the hard work yourself you let some mod do it for you.. Way to go man!
  15. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Lol, good guess, but I usually don't enter them. The discussion, it sounds like client mods are strong in practice but in results don't normally determine the outcome of a game.

    Besides, tournaments should just raise awareness of mods and list a suggested competitive mod list. Either way, people apparently without hotkey2 can legit win, and people using hotkey and autofactory can legit lose. There is no correlation. Or as I like to say, the following is a correlation chart between modding and tournament wins, ignoring the incorrect titles on the graph...

    [​IMG]
  16. rivii

    rivii Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I fail to see how auto-factory and auto-micro can be competitive mods they take away certain mechanics and the mechanics that it takes away are the ones where real pro's shine in. It levels the skill ceiling and doesn't reward amazing play.
  17. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    That's like saying that since the Teacher left the final exam solutions at the cafe. we all can look at them. After all, we all have access.

    Yeah. No. It's cheating.
  18. namelesst

    namelesst Member

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    I said yes, this should be in the game.
    The only time that the dox dancing like that can make any difference is very early game raids going after enemy workers. after that, if you don't have anything better to do, you are either way ahead or you already lost.

    Micro, macro and your ability to decide when to do what determines your skill. Can you dance a single bot to kill 6 enemy bots? Should you?

    Anything that is clearly not intended by the developer (that can't be done with the regular hot keys or mouse movements), that gives you an advantage over another player is a cheat. Projectile speed can easily be changed if they wanted to prevent this dancing. or 2nd projectile speed for aa.

    -Thus a mod like hot build is not a cheat. It gives you nothing new. Just a better way to organize hotkeys. Saves you no time and automates nothing for you.
    -Thus a mod like the turret with wall, is a cheat. It takes a hot key and instead of building a single structure, it designs, places, and organizes a far superior defense saving you time and effort. Until they endorse or introduce it to everyone, not just people who mod their game. It is a cheat.
    -Scripting some sort of "dodge" movement for your units is nothing more than blatant cheating. It would be little different than changing your units to be hitscan vs projectiles, or doubling their health. It is taking a unit and making it better than it is supposed to be.

    There are honest players and there are dishonest players. Cheating is the lowest type of scum and cheaters range from those who embrace their behaviour not caring it is wrong and those who try to justify their behaviors by "they could be cheating too, so it's fair."

    Don't get me wrong. Mod the game to your hearts content and as long as everyone is on the same playing field or choose to wave the option of using a mod. But using any mod that automates anything that wasn't meant to be automated in a match against people playing with the unmodded version is a cheat. Plain. Simple. Clear.

    In order for any performance enhancing mods to not be a cheat, they need to be transparent, and barred from joining games without the mods. As long as everyone is stuck playing together with the less scrupulous modders, performance improving mods need to be considered cheats. Ie everything that macros or micros for you in a task you would otherwise have to do yourself. For now, Let people know in the lobby if you have a "cheat" mod. If they don't care, great! You're fine. If you hide it to keep the advantage, look yourself in the mirror and see the scum you are XD
    Neumeusis and totalannihilation like this.
  19. totalannihilation

    totalannihilation Active Member

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    Speaking of micros stuff and godlike mods

    should "Skirmishing" feature be allowed? a mod, or a unit movement type (like roam and sweep), that makes the unit to keep the distance from enemy units while being in range of firing
  20. igncom1

    igncom1 Post Master General

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    Didn't I flame a thread about that once?

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