What if it's the radar the problem?

I've learned the importance of the Intel in M.A.X, where I ended up using the weakest faction most of the time, but that had the best intel. Knowing what was going to happen a click further than my adversary almost always gave me the upper hand. And that was just a tiny bit more of information.

I played last night against the AI using only scouts and basic ground radar, and it was fun. Untill I got nuked by the last AI that built barely more than 5 nuke sites :-D Of course I took a screenshot. And of course I can't find it :-/

Seeing how SC had Cybran (a whole faction that traded brute strength for the other side of intel war - stealth) and a whole boatload of various intel and counter-intelligence thingamajigs widely available, I'd imagine that importance of intel is widely know in and around PA. Turns out I was about half right...

Hello!

Old advanced radar have too big range.
New radar have too small..
We need all time scouting in big panets- mutch mikro in big systems and planets.
We can't defend 20-40 advanced radar everywere in a big planet.( Same problem nukes you need build antinukes everywhere and you can lunch 10 nukes in 1 place.We newer win nuke war whit antinukes)

First picture radar system now.
Second picture I think a god choise. not too big not too smal (and adapt the planet)

Second idea : you have radar over the teritory your anti nukes work better like this: third .picture.
I think antinukes fast smal and light rokets.

But we need radar wawe sreaching system. Becouse need to know enemy radar/antinuke range, before you attack with nukes.I know mutch mikro again. But another possibility. You can find the enemy radars not the units, only radars or/and radars ranges.

I don'k know its work but realistic.
This too complicatetd or posible?


red radar range
green anti nuke range




(Red radar range)
(Green antinuke range)

(Red radar range)
(Green antinuke range)

Hello Muhatib,
I personally like your approach and I would give it a thought at least. From my part I made my mind that one should have at least 5 radars in orbit to cover all the planet, which seems to go hand in hand with your proposal, and it is quite realistic / adaptable to various sizes of planets.

We will see what the Devs will end up doing about this issue. Consider that now it is also very easy to set an Air Factory to send scouts all over the surface (or an circular area) by itself with area select.

Nice graphs, anyway

guys @muhatib has the right idea.

New concept. Why better orbital radars.

Its hard to visualise that in the game.

Perhaps too realistic for a game. Still, cool, bro. I like it.

Yes i know. The limited range better.

Infinite map intel is really not that important. You only need three major types of information:
1) Army movement. This is tricky and the main focus of a decent RTS. Usually accomplished by using your own army. (Don't have an army? Go lose.)
2) Base design. This is only needed once in a while, and is the main use of scout units. A sacrificial anything will do the job. (Cheap and not difficult in the slightest.)
3) Commander location. Hey, isn't that guy important somehow?

Can you see the problem? No? Okay, I'll spoil it for you. The problem is #3. A Commander is one single point on a planet. He can not be reasonably found without having full intel on the planet. Therefore, the only full planet info you need is on this one. Single. Unit. That's it! Everything else is irrelevant. It is already taken care of by the most basic of units, radar, etc., and doesn't need anything more.

Yes, providing the game what it needs and not breaking those boundaries is pretty important. I mean, who would have thought that a game centered around hiding and protecting your Commander could also be focused on trying to find them as well? It is quite a novel and unexpected problem.

Lots of scout types? No. PA already has that by default, because literally every unit in the game has vision.

Scouting is essential, but pure vision type scouts are boring. There are more than enough utility roles that are needed on the field. A cheap, fast, non-shooting support unit would do the job and completely replace the idea of a pure vision unit.

"Pure vision" scouts are indeed boring. Which is why scouts with weapons are important. The difference being that scout units have much better vision than heavier combat units, and might be designed in other ways to be more adept as scouts. Despite the RTS trope of 'scout = no weapons' (or very weak weapons), that does not necessarily have to always be the case.

A scout vehicle shouldn't automatically be like the Jeffy, although a Jeffy-like unit can also exist. An armored scout could be quite similar to a main battle tank, even with a comparable main gun. But it might trade quite a bit of HP for much better vision range instead, and perhaps higher move speed.

Likewise, a spy plane doesn't have to be a disposable one-shot scout. A spy plane should be the most survivable plane you can weld together, with the most sophisticated tech you've got, because it is going to by flying over very hot areas with unknown amounts of anti-air. Or scout snipers being the best troops you can get because you're sending them into the most dangerous places by themselves.

Good recon units can actually be very desirable units, and not just for their vision.

My point is that assuming a scout unit has no weapons and virtually no HP is not necessary. It actually makes a lot of sense to design scout units as force recon instead of as disposable unarmed units to get a one-shot view of the target area.

Also fitting into number 3 is any kind of game changing information, like a secret nuke, a fabber building a secret proxy, any kind of surprise attack, etc.

That's not a scout at all. That's a flash tank. Standard combat units already have vision. You don't need a gimp land version of something that demands to be in the air.

The wreckage game is underdeveloped. A scout unit is ideal for sucking up wreckage, because the fastest mouse gets the cheese.

Ehhh, not really. Secret nukes can be defended(in a currently stupid way, but that's Uber for ya), secret proxies can be wiped out with army patrols, due diligence protects against surprise attacks, etc.etc. The only scouting information which is both essential AND extremely expensive is trying to find the Commander. It is a single unit that could be literally anywhere on the map, which you always need a way to find. Preferably without breaking your bank. It is the only unit that demands extreme and frequent scouting if you hope to end the game.

So is the Adv satellite radar gone now in .59549 ?
I haven't played much and wasn't focusing a lot on orbital unit but I haven't seen it. I build a satellite radar but either it wasn't working or my land radar had pretty much the same vision radius.

What's the current status on orbital radars since the latest build?

I believe that the Radar balance issue (you are trying to discussing final, completed, product balance here, there are still some coming features that will nullify some present concerns this is still a BETA!) should be postponed until we get the enemy strategic icons for units and buildings, a la SC where the dots are only unscouted units and the units that are scouted and stay in radar range you can see the icon for.
Why should you build the much more expensive Adv. Radar if you could have roughly the same intel with a standard orbital radar and a small fleet of scout planes? The only real difference between the two currently is knowing what is coming instead of something is coming.

Adv are built by the orbital fabber now.

The way orbital radars are now you've got to place them over the area you want "radar-ed" with the difference between adv and regular being the radius. Its no longer a build one adv. orbital radar -> see whole planet type of deal. I'm also not sure if they can be moved; I'm having a lot of issues getting things to move in the orbital plane, I don't know if its not catching my clicks in the plane or the units just aren't supposed to move. So, as it stands I just have the orbital fabber roam about building adv satellites where I think I'll need them.

My question is WTH the orbital defender satellite doodads are good for other than sitting in the place where the orbital station put them and twirling about not letting me move them?

This is from my experience, maybe I'm just using everything the wrong way.

So currently the advance orbital radar does not break the FOW ?

yea I don't want to push it to the point where it detects units higher up in the air but not stuff on the ground...

about the nuke that's a good improvement from now but I think we should just make it like the meteor in PA and nuke in Forged Alliance and give you an immediate notification whenever one is launched.