What can we do for the backers?

Discussion in 'Backers Lounge (Read-only)' started by neutrino, June 17, 2013.

  1. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    I just don't understand how people can justify these attacks on the devs.

    They dont have time to get into discussions on the forums over every single little debate that goes on. I read yesterday that people were complaining about units not being of the correct size and really having a go at the devs over something that they may or may not have mentioned in a stream one time and their lack of communication (I have never witnessed communication this good before with devs). It's these constant nitpickings and naggings which probably make them "not respond to a direct question" or be hesitant to release any information. As they know this will probably just add fuel to the posts on what was wrong or could be better and what not.

    Anyhows I think ye are doing a great job guys, really can't say this enough. Take your time with the multi planet and orbital units because this is the key area in this game. I would hate to have the job to try balance/make this as playable as the rest of the game. But I trust ye and your expertise in this field. Hence my small donation to acquire alpha.
  2. Ringworm

    Ringworm Active Member

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    "Hence my small donation to acquire alpha.
    "

    Cheapskate ;)
  3. paulusss

    paulusss Active Member

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    It's not really about justification, it's about what people are bothered by, because they have allot of passion and they care for the game. (obviously you can wrongly interpret this because they are abit frustrated and that shows in there forum post)

    But shitstorms are good. Why? Because then we know what the problems are, we can look at them as a hole, take conclusions out of it, talk about it, clear the air, adjust course ect.

    For some reason people felt this way, i don't say there wrong, i don't say there right, but it doesn't come out of thin air, people were feeling this for a reason and expressed that, i'd say, nothing wrong with that.
    How people said it does matter abit, but they didn't get out of line if you ask me, they also got a response in return the same way they made it sound, and that's what they had comming, still nothing wrong with that.

    Confrontation is good, it makes you understand each other better and that way we can stay on the same page and progress.
    RCIX likes this.
  4. neutrino

    neutrino low mass particle Uber Employee

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    Damn, I actually like this thought process.

    In fact something interesting popped into my head as I was reading this. If one were to hang around Uber for a week or so you would probably notice at least a few very heated arguments happening every week. I can definitely raise my voice on occasion and sometimes the coders (including me) get into heated arguments about technical issues. Sometimes I rant to people about things I think are bedrock game issues. Sometimes people rant to me on things they are passionate about (multiple heated discussions today about nukes/anti-nukes). The reasons for these arguments are the same as the reason that we all can get testy on the forum, passion. Passion so strong that the facts don't count. I'm not sure if you guys have realized this but you don't build insane stuff like this without having people on the team who are over the top passionate about what they do. Note that isn't always purely about making games but can also be about the tools and the process. For example the lead programmer William is extremely passionate about code to the point where the means can justify the end. Beautiful code is like fine art to him. It's literally offends his sensibilities to see code that isn't "correct" from his point of view. This isn't a bad thing, it's part of the mix that creates great games and great technology. For example I know of very similar people on other great game teams (and believe me I know an unbelievable amount of people in this industry).

    So let's keep the passion up, not take stuff personally, and every once in a while throw down . It'll be cathartic and we'll come to a deeper understanding of other peoples point of view. Or as they say, you don't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
    sorenr, zaphodx, infuscoletum and 2 others like this.
  5. RCIX

    RCIX Member

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    Addressing the topic title.

    I'm waiting for mod tools. What you have is awesome, but my time is limited and it's not in a sufficiently playable state for ME. Orbital isn't here, multiple planets isn't here, the units are slow and clunky as **** (as much a physics tuning thing as pathing issues and un-polishedness. It's one of the things I'm going to look into), nothing is balanced, etc. Your average alpha =p

    I want to crack down and start work on some things, and I can't right now. I'll keep fairly passively monitoring the forums till I get the tools I need, but I do hope they come soon.
  6. paulzeke

    paulzeke Member

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    loving the attitude here

    I'm also feeling really impatient to get orbital stuff up and running for all alpha backers. The ruff game so far is already really fun so it's frustrating to know there's still so much to do and it's still months away from being finished. I've spent more time following the development of this game than any other in my life so that amplifies the wait time.
  7. paulusss

    paulusss Active Member

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    Absolutely true for me aswell. Some of us including me, thought there was more then we were currently getting. And when that happends reality is being bend to the way we think is a fact, because of some events of the past. But as has been cleared out, we really have the latest of the latest of what the PA gods made, so yeah how impatient i am willing to play this game in full glory, or atleast more then we have now. We really need to wait patiently.
    Last edited: August 17, 2013
  8. paulusss

    paulusss Active Member

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    Absolutely true!

    Being passive not speaking your mind will change nothing, just always stay respectful, like breaking the egg with flair and grace XD
    Last edited: August 17, 2013
  9. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    Well Uber is getting close to actually implementing orbital stuff and interplanetary stuff and everyone is noticing it and expecting it. And it's not weird, cause it was one of the major selling points of PA.


    I don't know how it actually goes at Uber, but i think this might be worth explaining a bit.

    There is a server with the actual game programming. When someone at Uber starts a project, they reserve part of the code. This is a way of saying: "this is being worked on". The game is downloaded to the dev's computer with the rights to modify the reserved parts.

    When Neutrino says "stuff thats checked in" he means that a dev has uploaded the modified code to the central server and unreserved it. The code (and other game data obviously) is flagged for release. The dev reserves some more code, or starts a new project (like: adding a planet type) and continues the job. The new code is checked, tested a bit for major problems (e.g. obvious game crashes), Neutrino (or whoever keeps check on the main version) approves and the central server downloads the game version into the alpha servers.

    NOTE: this isn't exactly how it goes but should give you an idea.

    What this means is the only "secret" builds that exist, are those on any Dev's computer. If you see stuff like "Alpha.version unknown" that's the game version on someone's computer, not the game on the central server. The only real lag between the Alpha players and the actual game is the time where all checked-in code is being approved and released.


    I know this is a bit late perhaps but:

    The tech support, the people who do the 99% boring stuff of games, are generally the unsung heroes of game development. The people in the stream compliment more other people at uber than the people on screen. We could have a livestream explaining how exactly those decals get aligned and how those brushes work etc but it's boring.

    I am an engineer, and what gets me through boring calculations is the end result. Something that works. What those people love to see is the technology they make, helping others. The vast majority of the really cool stuff, the battles, explosions, metal and lava planets, it's not possible without those people. They deserve some credit.


    I do like the way the livestreams go. I think giving an honest view of how the people are at Uber and showing what they're passionate about is far superior to a purely utilitarian livestream. What gave me the confidence to buy Beta access wasn't the game, wasn't the features. It was the people at Uber, in no small part Neutrino, showing that they know what they are talking about, being passionate about the game they make and giving a clear indication of what they aim for: Fun.

    This is the last bit i wanted to comment on. Ultimately, the kind of questions that lie at the heart of these problems have many answers. One could fill a livestream with the discussion on the role of nukes. We managed to fill, what, 50 pages of thread on that topic. Depending on the details, one could simply make 3 builds with varying implementations, play them, and see which works best. The most difficult thing to justify however, is the gut feeling. Sometimes, the Devs might go for a solution that is based upon a gut feeling, and such a feeling is pretty much impossible to explain or justify. Such decisions can go entirely against common sense and facts and data and yet prove entirely right. It's best to keep such things out of public knowledge because people will hate Neutrino for it, for decades. (even if Neutrino has nothing to do with it).
    purecaldari likes this.
  10. nanolathe

    nanolathe Post Master General

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    Gut feeling is not about going against common sense, facts and data... it's about going forward with common sense and some related facts, but lacking experimental data to back it up.

    There's an important distinction there that makes the difference between gut feeling and idiocy.
    Last edited: August 17, 2013
  11. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    ha ha.

    Well it occasionally does go against common sense. But the most important point remains that it's something you can't really back up.
  12. osirus9

    osirus9 Member

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    So, does this mean that there is no game design document for PA? Can you maybe elaborate on what you guys did to prepare for making this idea become a pitch, a video, and then become (almost! So close!) a reality?
  13. doud

    doud Well-Known Member

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    It's obvious there's lots of game design (I know i said to garat there was no game design in PA in another thread and that was a bad way to tell that i was frustrated). Now i understood game design is not occuring in a classical way at Uber and i'm also interested in knowing how one can avoid design mistakes when working using scrum/agile methods. I'm working in a company where devs like to say they work using agile/scrum methods, doing many coding "sprints". however it usually ends in big design mistakes simply because they forget to watch the overall picture. I understand that running with agile/scrum helps to start faster and not waste time. But i really wonder what protect coders from missing something very important and discover it at the very end, resulting in having to redo everything because many small pieces of code can interact with each other.
  14. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    For one, it's a team of really experienced people, which i think helps.

    In general, i think there is at least SOME documentation on the project. It's just that they haven't planned every detail.

    Lastly, the situation you describe doud, there seems to be a lack of oversight or communication or whatever.
  15. Tankh

    Tankh Member

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    Maybe you could let the backers forum name some units or similar. I know planets are already named, and that was paid extra for, so maybe that wouldn't be fair? on the other hand, the planet naming was paid for so the user could name it pretty much whatever they wanted, while voting for names in forums would promote quality names instead of quantity.
  16. KNight

    KNight Post Master General

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    Naming units is part of the 5K Pledge level, of course that includes more than just naming the unit.....

    Second, you assume that the Planet names supplied by Backers won't have any oversight, obviously Uber will go over the names to make sure nothing malicious(intentional or otherwise) makes it into the Release Version. The Good thing about making naming a buy-in setup is that it very easily removes the majority of 'troll' or 'for teh lulz' naming habits, it doesn't stop it entirely of course but it sure goes a long way. It also means there will only ever be a finite number of names all in all created a good quality ratio.

    Mike
  17. RMJ

    RMJ Active Member

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    A good Pizza would sure hit the spot. you know ?.
  18. globalrelative

    globalrelative New Member

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    group photo for beta release
    Kraqen and SXX like this.
  19. vackillers

    vackillers Well-Known Member

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    LoL... Hell yeah!! I'd be down for that....

    Just quickly though, everyone has passion for the game and people speak out, don't hate on the devs as I think they are producing an amazing game it will be worth it when it finally comes to a retail/full release. Smalls things bug people, I can understand that, like size-to-scale for units and what have you, things will get sorted just give them time and stay respectful like someone said. I could go off on one about their not being shields or shield bubbles in the game because an option to simply disable shields would solve all issues with that, but I dont, just take the game and enjoy it for what it is.

    On topic though, perhaps more concept art? and full sized concept art...
  20. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    +1 to this. Really cool idea, I'm always like to check those photos from game dev studious, especially when game released 10-20 years ago. :)

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