Viability of Assassins? Post-Nerf (NO LUNGE GRAPPLES)

I just came back yesterday and I didn't notice anything different with Assassin. o_o

Is this an upcoming patch? If so, I can't frikin' wait. Assassins are so easy mode atm. >.>

Could they nerf grenade 10% and bomb 40% then? Idk, but it would make sense that the bomb (being a stackable damage weapon) shouldn't do added damage to what you already can do with the grenade launcher...

...but when I have a chance, i'll do some tests and see physically how many seconds it takes for a juiced shotgun to kill the moneyball, a juiced grenade gun, a juiced sword, and a juiced shuriken launcher. I'll most likely be back with the good news, because I am pretty confident of what I say.

Until then, everyone lrn2defend? At least 1 player per team should be preventing assaults from getting above the moneyball so they DON'T bomb it. If I am support, I may hang back for 40 seconds in overtime, just to watch that ledge and toss airstrikes below it if I see anyone coming (so when they land on it, instant death).

Weird, I lunge grappled several injured Tanks on spunky cola from behind, only to have it turned into a face grapple, and me dead. The Tank did not even turn around before said grapple.

Don't let your money ball drop. Easiest way in the world to defend. Even better is that this is something you can do from the middle of the map!

Overtime is just stupid and defense doesn't really win.

I posted the money ball damage numbers above and you can see how fast it goes down under various conditions. Juice multiplier is 3x damage. RoF multiplier is 1/(endorsement modifier value). Put in those values and you get approximately how fast things do damage to the money ball. It has 10,000 health. Attach bomb damage is 1000.

Please stop spouting nonsense.

Scathis, stop spouting nonsense, the numbers are always right, even if you are the one that created them :lol:

LOL the numbers you see are interpreted by the game engine, and tend to not be correct all the time. Moneyball is one of those scenarios apparently. Another one that I can prove, is that a "pancake" used to do a certain amount of damage according to the file, but it actually insta-kills by script according to game tests (the flattening effect and all). If pancakes are proven to be wrong even though you can see their numbers in the file, what else could be wrong with the numbers you spout out to use as "YUR WRONG DER" arguements? No offence, just tired of quoting numbers that I am capable of looking up.

It is better to test in-game the damage, but don't we all agree that assault could maybe use somewhat of a nerf? Simply make one of his mild weaknessess a a wee bit weaker, not that I have trouble (except moneyball damage, EVERY DAMN TIME lol) but if you are going to nerf everything else why not nerf this last obviously top tier easymoto class?

None of these are special case situations.

Multiply base damage by core multiplier by (1/fire interval) by juice multiplier by (1/rof multiplier).

Done.

Surprisingly enough they match up pretty well in game to expected values from the calculations above. Amazing!

The file isn't there for no reason, I understand math as well (because I don't pay attention to spelling or grammar, doesn't mean I didn't take AP English, and because I dislike numbers, doesn't mean I didn't take Calculus).

However, where the file does a lot of stuff for the game, like scoped and unscoped sniper rifle base damage, different things have different "armors" (what you would call a damage multiplier on C&C Renegade), which take base damage from different weapons in different ways.

According to file, assaults that run around assault-rifling bots and turrets are correct for doing so, the rate of fire and damage is higher... lolNO. Turrets obviously take different damage from bullets as they do explosives, but this multiplier is in the hostilebalance.ini file as well, under turrets. However, tank jetgun is more ambiguous, technically it's damage doesn't match up compared to minigun on a lot of things. And pancakes are very awrong, they obviously don't do 1300 damage or whatever the file said they did.

Sniper Rifles once did god aweful moneyball damage, where a juice sniper could kill the moneyball in 12 shots, and could fire 15 shots in 1 juice with gold rate. See the problem with the old sniper? Problem is, that also was ambiguous with the file, as there is little mention of that phenomenon or how they fixed it. This is really really off topic now, so let's just find a nerf-assault thread for this. See you there?

Hey Zodiark! ...What happened to your youtube account? I enjoyed watching you play sin.


And also seconding this. Infact, a friend of mine (who is a SCARY gunner) got autobalanced.. and i jumped down behind him, grappled his big glowy jetpack at point blank and... stabbed him in the face. Then got murdered.

This has happened a number of times now. Kindof irritating..

I took this information into account.

The file does include it. I'll break it down for you:

BAL_GLAUNCH_DMG=150 - This is the base damage of the grenade launcher (what it does vs pros)
BAL_GLAUNCH_DRAD=256 - This is the explosive damage radius (how large of a sphere the explosion is)
BAL_GLAUNCH_FIREINT=1.0 - This is how quickly the gun fires, 1.0 = 1shot per second
BAL_GLAUNCH_SPR=0.01 - This is the weapon spread (the variable that affects how much variation each shot has from center point of crosshair.)
BAL_GLAUNCH_DMGVSFIX=2 - This is the multiplier for how much damage the weapon does vs Turrets (including the support's turret) Fix stands I believe for "Fixture"
BAL_GLAUNCH_DMGVSFOD=3 - This is the multiplier for how much to multiply the base damage by for bots. Fod I believe stands for "Fodder" (Example: Grenade launcher base damage = 150. Dmg vs bots is a 3x multiplier so grenade launcher does 150x3 = 450 per shot to bots.)
BAL_GLAUNCH_IMPULSE=50000 - This it the "impulse" or momentum of the grenade launcher. It affects its trajectory and speed
BAL_GLAUNCH_JUICE=1 - This is how much juice you gain per hit(multiple targets hit with 1 shot will grant juice equal to number of targets hit). I believe 1 = 1% but I'm not certain. (i'll test it)
BAL_GLAUNCH_AMMO=10 - This is the weapons clip size
BAL_GLAUNCH_DMGVSCRE=0.5 - This the weapons damage multipler vs Moneyball. (not sure what "CRE" stands for)
BAL_GLAUNCH_RELOAD=2 - This is the weapons reload speed integer. (this has to be an integer so only whole numbers.) the number is the time in seconds. 2 = 2seconds
BAL_GLAUNCH_RELOADFRAC=0.8 - This is the weapons reload time additional fraction. So you add the base reload and the fractional reload time together to get the weapons true reload speed. In this case its 2.8seconds.
BAL_GLAUNCH_GREN_LIFE=1 - This is how long the grenade will last before exploding on its own if it does not hit a target. 1 = 1second.
BAL_GLAUNCH_CRIT_DUR=0.25 - This is the only one I'm uncertain on. I BELIEVE its how long a critically fired grenade retains its status as critical. However I don't know for sure. Grenade launcher, flamethrower and shurikan launcher all have this stat but nothing else does. Each one has a VERY different number too.

My sister happened. :roll: .

I got a couple vids up on my new channel here. I'll reupload that headcrab too, just cause it's funny.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Adrammalech ... ature=mhum

For the most part this is accurate, but not 100%. I'll let you mull over which ones.
"CRE" I believe is a rather peculiar abbreviation for "Core", the money ball's internal name.

Aha, I figured out the hint. It is critical shot, isn't it?

Critical shot increases damage on criticals. Assault's natural critical shot is quite high, which boosts his damage when juiced.

So, when juiced, his shots do quite an extra difference in damage. Even if it is 50-60% more damage (which it is realistic to think with passive3 that he has 50-60% critical shot), added to every shot while adding juice damage multiplier, practically doubles it's damage compared to the dumb stuff like the shuriken launcher you falsely worship.

Tell me if I am right or wrong here.

Crit duration is how long your weapon will fire critical shots. For instance, if you were to somehow fire 4 grenades inside the crit period of .25 seconds, all four would be critical.

Yes and no.

No you are WAY off on his passive 3 stats. That is actually ALSO covered in hostilebalance:

BAL_A_WEAPONS_CRITMULT=0.15 - This is the crit damage multiplier for level 2 passive. 0.15 = 15% more damage from critical hits
BAL_A_WEAPONS_CRITCHNCE=2 - This is the critical chance percentage increase for level 2 passive. At level 2 you have a 2% increased chance to receive a random critical shot.
BAL_A_WEAPONS_CRITMULT_2=0.25 - Level 3 passive multiplier = 25% dmg increase from crits
BAL_A_WEAPONS_CRITCHNCE_2=5 - Level 3 passive chance increase = 5% chance for crits.

The assault's passive is literally the same as getting Silver or Gold "critical" endorsements. (except they stack on top of each other.)
These are the critical endorsement stats.
BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_1=0.1 - Bronze
BAL_END_CRIT_CHANCE_1=2 - Bronze
BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_2=0.15 - Silver
BAL_END_CRIT_CHANCE_2=3 - Silver
BAL_END_CRIT_MULT_3=0.25 - Gold
BAL_END_CRIT_CHANCE_3=5 - Gold

So taking gold crit endorsement + passive 3 THEN you'll have a 50% boost to your critical hit Damage. (Unless they are cumulatively added which would be weird.)
Example You shoot a critical shot that does 100damage, With passive 3 it does 125. With passive 3 and gold crit it does 150damage if the crit damage math works like this: ((0.25+0.25)+1)*100 = 150 but if the math looks like this: (100*1.25)*1.25 than you get 156damage.

However taking gold crit means that you sacrifice gold ROF or gold skill, or whatever you take normally. So your DPS will end up lower unless you are juiced. And in overtime, every one gets bacon so everyone has gold crit endorsement meaning that you are back to only getting the bonus of having passive 3 give 25% more critical damage.

Now according to grimbar's spread sheet the highest DPS you can get using the grenade launcher (without criticals) is 179dps

The highest you can get using shurikans is 418dps as Assassin.

Now we take each of those numbers and we multiply them by their "core" damage multiplier to find out what sort of moneyball potential they have.

The assault's core damage multiplier for grenade launcher is 0.5
So 179*0.5 = 89.5dps

The assassin's multiplier for shuriken is: 0.164 so 407*0.164=66.74 Significantly lower than the assault.

Now these numbers are highest possible BURST damage. So what if we took sustained damage numbers?

150*0.5 = 75dps for assault
418*0.164=68.552 for shuriken launcher

As you can see the Assault's moneyball damage outside of the use of his explosive is pretty darn balanced. Here are a few other classes stats(i'll use sustained damage):

Assault Rifle: 344*0.2 = 68.8dps
Assassin Sword: 167*0.125 = 20.87
Shotgun: 403*0.25 = 100.75dps
H/H Gun: 67*1.0 = 67dps (Note: Hurt heal does same damage to pros/bots/moneyball.)
Air Strike: 2500*0.05 = 125damage per strike (note: does full 2500 damage to turrets, Bots, and pros)
Firebase: 150*0.4 = 60dps (not entirely sure why this is even in the stats since I've NEVER seen the firebase target the core. Maybe it used to on xbox?)
Sniper Rifle: 89*0.33 = 29.37dps
SMG: 262*0.25 = 65.5
Flak: 300*0.33 = 100 (note level 3 flak will do 500damage total per use to the moneyball.)
Minigun: 923*0.1 = 92.3dps
Dual Minigun: 2318*0.1 = 231.8dps
Jetgun: 503*0.18 = 90.54
Railgun: 150*0.27 = 40.5

So as you can see, if you build the grenade launcher SPECIFICALLY to deal as much damage as possible (ignoring skills,survivability,mobility,ect.) It still pretty much on par with everyone else. Tank/Support actually beat it. And Gunner absolutely DESTROYS everyone elses dps using dual miniguns. Shuriken launcher is almost equal.

Lastly: lets look at the critical hit for the grenade launcher vs the health of the moneyball

Best case scenario (every shot connects, you built specifically for DPS, and are uninterrupted for the duration of your juice)
75*3.25 = 243dps
Moneyball health: 10,000
10,000/243 = 41.15seconds

You could destroy the moneyball in 41 seconds. ASSUMING you were juiced every second (and didn't use your explosive.)

Even in a BEST case scenario you still can't tell me you destroy the moneyball in 40seconds from mid by yourself using grenade launcher only. Simply mathmatically impossible.

Reviewing the stats I still feel that assault needs a nerf on his explosive damage vs moneyball, but no change to his grenade launcher damage.

You know, as long as it isn't being complained about, i'll simply spread the word that every game people should change to assault for overtime. Then, in steel peel just gangbang the pillar to the right of their base from the annihilator area and the elbow walkway.

Not to mention I don't mind playing broken to counter broken. Especially assault, he was my initial favorite before being overplayed. Either way, you guys should have seen the unpatched xbox version of this game. So much complaining about moneyball damage, as well as every other unbalanced thing.

Steel Peels problems go far deeper than assault though. The map itself is a mess. You take that top ledge by the enemies base with a support and have an sniper at the back ledge by your own base and you basically can keep the enemy from pushing out to counter you.

Its so hard to make a comeback once you lose any ground on that map.

It's entirely possible to break a contain on Steel Peel. You just need to actually try to break it instead of playing KDR and running the same old "lose in a pretty way" type strategy.

It doesn't matter if there is a firebase or sniper or whatever. You go out there try to do damage, retreat to heal or respawn and try again. Playing in your base and not trying is the same as giving up. Any counter pressure is better than passively sitting in your base praying that they will somehow screw up the easiest thing in the game of containing a non-aggressive opponent.

I hear Gunner's Mortars work quite well on breaking those ledge camps, if only the team was smart enough to provide protection for said Gunners.

We went from Assassin talk, to Assault vs moneyball talk, to stats, to map tactics. o_0

I did mention earlier that I thought this thread should be locked. :roll: