Vertical Construction / Stacking Factories

Re: Stacking Factories

Sure but if the base with stacked factories hidden in the mountains is hit by a nuke then all structures will get destroyed due to them beeing clumped up. Such a base may offer a coverage for a lot of factories , but at the risk of them beeing a perfect target for t2 artilery and nukes. If stacked factories would have less hitpoints then the ones build separately then they would be a perfect target for bombers as well. They don't detract from the game's gameplay and don't make it worse. Uber Please introduce them to main game since you can not play mods with the majority of people. You can always make a button to turn them off in game settings. Give the opportunity to the people admiring them.

Re: Stacking Factories

Why are you guys having a balance discussion over this? Uber has already advised us to avoid balance discussions as balance can change at any moment, and even then, you're having a discussion over something downright silly. What does it matter where the nuke lands, a smart player doesn't nuke the enemy factories, he nukes the enemy ECONOMY. Even with stackable factories people would still space their factories to increase coverage, and therefore response time, effective HP and the overall intimidation factor of their base. And one way or another, you've just been nuked! You are going to have one hell of a time recovering, especially if your enemy just so happens to have an army moving in on your just-nuked location right... About... Now.

I'm not trying to put anyone down but this is downright silly. This is the kind of thing someone would do as a mod because they think it would be cool, not the kind of thing that a developer on a semi-shoestring budget would explicitly add just for the sake of adding it. It creates more problems than it solves, if it solves any.

Re: Stacking Factories

a balance discussion can only be done on something already in the game.

Re: Stacking Factories

gunshin I think you're freaking out for no reason, this hasn't been tested and when it is more case senarios will show up than the single one you thought of.

like I said the idea would be one of a double edge sword.

You're making it sound like there would be no case senario where staking wouldn't be better than normal. I think very much to the contrary.

Let's add this to the tableau to imagine : Planets will also have strategic depth to them. what if there is a certain type of planet where it is more adapted to go nuke? one where it is more adapted to go direct com-on-com? I'm certain threre would be planets where staking is a good idea, and some where it isn't.

to cap off I'll just resume some of the double edge sword properties of staking fatories:

PRO : ............................... CON:
-base building simplicity .... -vulnerability per factory
-base building organization . -overall base vulnerability
-greater bang per square ... -less intimidating base
meter (if stealth tower ....... -less likely to earn map control
becomes a thing) .............. -much harder to defend
-fooling the radar .............. -less reclaim if need to rebuild
-better base on limited soil . -sometimes not adapted to the battlefield
-easyer assisting micromanagement
-sometimes adapted to the
battlefield

Re: Stacking Factories

+10 to this post

Re: Stacking Factories

Initially, I was of the opinion that stacking factories could be an interesting mechanic. Now, I'm not so sure.

Firstly, I really dislike the concept of introducing hard caps and limits into PA, and would like to see them avoided as much as possible. If stacking infinitely is considered somewhat ridiculous, then a hard-cap is the only way to go about it. This leads to a scenario where stacked factories are likely to be strictly better than unstacked factories. I'm finding it difficult to imagine a scenario where i wouldn't want to eventually upgrade all my factories into a maximum stack, as they are always easier to defend, can be more efficiently assisted by fabbers, and make better use of space. The only real downside is that they are more susceptible to a single snipe. However single strikes aren't really much of an issue in the present game. Mainly because I the player can pull of that much of a deep penetrating snipe, they would be better hitting the commander, rather than a factory stack. The current issue is someone having a greater army, winning the key battles, then running over your base and taking down factories one after the other. In this case, distributing factories is already a non optimal strategy, as it makes them harder to defend, whilst the attacker remains mobile enough to easily take them down one by one.

Stacking factories isn't a terrible idea, but the effort required to make it worth really doesn't seem like it's worth the very small amount of additional strategic depth it would offer. I'd much rather see the devs spend their time on things like Orbital combat and new units.

And as a side note, tatsujb, what's with all the pols? You know that you don't have to include them? They are generally only useful in a small number of circumstances, as discussion is a much fuller way to gauge what people think.

Re: Stacking Factories

AI stack to hide their numbers and these bombing raids are too uniform for roaming bombers.

Re: Stacking Factories

but I like polls...

Plus is not like anyone is not bothering to write because of the poll. I like that some people also wait and read the debate and wait until they know what they prefer to cast their vote. And in the end it can show interesting information about what people think.

Re: Stacking Factories

and in one bombing raid you could loose a massive amount of production

spread out factories are easier to defend. as well as the assistance that a single faber will add to a stack should be spread out proportional to the number of stacks. for example if two are stacked and i put one fab on it the bonus will be spread out between the two facs so each fac will get 1/2 of the benefit and a three stack each fac will get 1/3 the benefit.

stacks will probably be useful in low risk areas to make it easier to manage build orders more then too make it easier to defend.

i would also expect higher power and metal usages as you add on to the stack

i still hold my argument that stacks should be limited to the height limit for that particular planets

especially since the height limit is supposed to simulate the effects of gravity based erosion on a planet

Re: Stacking Factories

Except that's not really how it would work. Ceteris paribus, A smaller area is ALWAYS easier to defend than a larger one. Defending units can cross it quicker, turrets can overlap fire better, and overall fire-power density is higher. A player ALWAYS needs less resources to defend a small area against a given force than a larger area.

Furthermore, when you consider roll-off time, assisting a stack with a given quantity of fabbers is always more efficient then assisting distributing factories. For example, if I have 5 stacked factories, which all start building, then to get units out fastest it is logical that fabbers will all assist one factory. That factory finishes first, and the unit starts to roll off, leaving the engineers idle. Now, they can assist the next factory. If the ratio of factories to engineers is below a critical value, then the engineers will always be busy, meaning they are being used more efficiently than if they are unable to switch factories, or must move between them. To get rid of this is to introduce hidden and special-cased behaviour, such as production penalties, or silly assistance behaviour, which is antithetical to the overall design philosophy of PA.

If I have built a number of factories, and my economy continues to grow, I will always want to build more factories. For any factory I build, I would eventually want to stack it, in order to increase production, assistance efficiency, and ease of defence. There is only one balance against this, and that is the case of if my defences fall, then I loose more factories at once instead of over a short period of time. In other words, the only deciding metric in terms of should I choose to stack or not is how secure my factories are, which is a single one-dimensional assessment. If($Factory_secure == TRUE){&Stack}else{&DoNotStack};. This isn't a meaningful choice, it's a calculation. This doesn't add depth, it adds complexity.

I'm not going to go to the battlements over this one, but it doesn't offer as much when viewed under more than a cursory glance. In terms of the effort, required to make it work (re-doing factory models to look good stacked, adding vertical transport, making fabbers assist properly), it seems like the ratio of dev work in to interesting depth out is at best, pretty small.

Re: Stacking Factories

Why are we so dead set on the way this idea would be? Let's, instead of saying how unbalanced it would be should it come to life, visualise it in a more balanced, user-freindly way. Use that brainpower to propose ideas.

I haven't thought of this before but what if you could only start staking on a factory if it was 10minutes old? and so on and so forth with the next levels.

interesting no? by this stage in the game it should be about the time you'd have met your opponent on the battlfield and may be a bit limited on spreading out because he already owns the terrain you covet.

It would make factories valuable and keeping them alive of greater interest.

And this does not bog down the game with mechanics as it is quite lightwheight:

after 10 minutes you can add a factory layer.

there. a 9-word phrase to cap it off.

Re: Stacking Factories

Don't mistake that it is a good idea, it just isn't really fitting for the game play.

Advantages like a more organised base set up are really kinda silly when that removes the organisation of setting up a wide base over a taller one.

We are more going for huge sprawling military-industrial complexes then more efficient stacks of 3d printers.

Id love to see a mod based on the idea, but for the main game it doesn't really fit the setting.

Re: Stacking Factories

what if it takes talent to be able to manage both?

Re: Stacking Factories

:? ok then......no need to just straight up insult me.

Re: Stacking Factories

:shock: no, no you misundertood this was not an attack, I was pointing out it makes no sence to think it would be the only and best option since it isn't clear cut what "it" is yet and that while this mechanic adds a choice it does not force you to chose one over the other, lastly it should not be frowed upon that correct usage of the two simultaneously would result in more wins, it would just be something to strive towards to get better.

Re: Stacking Factories

OHHHHH ok :lol:

Re: Stacking Factories

Its balanced out by the fact that a stacked factory can be destroyed as easily as just one, so spaced out factory's are safer from bombers/artty/sneak attacks/tac missles, but stacked factory's are safer from ground attacks, assuming you can keep them from being attacked.

I think it would give more value to actually trying to damage your opponents eco, instead of trying to beat him to death with a wave of tanks, then going in for the snipe.

There isn't a huge incentive to make careful, deliberate attacks, oh sure if they have an energy field open you can take it out gg, but I think bases need more priority targets, storage is going in a good direction in terms of priority targets, I think radar needs more cost (energy wise).

Re: Stacking Factories

That's actually why I didn't take this seriously lol. It just gives newbies a bigger chance to mess up.

Why build 5 factories when you can build a FACTORY TOWER! WHOAAAAAH!

Re: Stacking Factories

Pfff that's the least of our worries, really when you try to orient a game towards macro the learning curve becomes abrupt, with a whole lot at the begining, it's a natural result. But the gamers who loved TA and SupCom FA is the public the game is marketed towards, not mister IplayedstarcraftonceMcGee.

Re: Stacking Factories

What about SirI'veNeverPlayedanRTSBefore, because I meet a lot of those in PA.