True Economy

Discussion in 'Videos And Replays!' started by Qzipco, July 8, 2016.

  1. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    If two countries both have nukes, they don't use them in the first place. Nuking you will simply result in you nuking me. Using the nuke benefits not the attacker.

    Likewise, using commander repair in a stupid comm push is not a shoehorned strategy
    stuart98 likes this.
  2. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    Yeah there are many solutions, of course I'm going to repair too, I'm going to play to win, using the commander aggressively is a strong tactic as I mentioned throughout this thread, but his all ins -repairing with several combat fabbers and minimal support is highly counterable, this as I mentioned is why he changed tactics thoughout the tests.

    Until the commander cost and uber buff, strategic commander pushes where the go to. This for me is a fun way to play the game, my main argument is the all in pushes are not optimal in games and most likely lose more than you win against equally matched opponent. Also they get riskier the longer the game goes. Hence the radius cap he mentioned.
    stuart98 likes this.
  3. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    Here's the thing elodea and Clopse still do not get. We are testing the mod, not commander push or a rush strategy. How can you see if comm repairing works if both players are using it? The only results we will be getting out of this is determining if commander pushing works well with a certain build.

    And also elodea, comparing not building t2 and not repairing your commander with combat fabber is a bad comparison. T2 holds so many different kinds of units with so many different kinds of specialties. Comapring not reparing with not building t2 is just rediculous.
    Last edited: July 19, 2016
  4. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    What you talking about? You come on here with the initial video saying that commander repair is OP and ruins the game because games will be over in 5 minutes. I said no it's not cause it easily countered if you play it properly. See; argument and counter argument. Now you are changing the rules of the argument cause you found out you were mistaken.

    ''We are testing the mod, not commander push or a rush strategy. How can you see if comm repairing works if both players are using it? The only results we will be getting out of this is determining if commander pushing works well with a certain build.''


    So what do you want to test? The only difference to vanilla is the com costs less to reclaim and repair. That pretty much rules out reclaim. So then we test if the push is strong... of course it is, both players can do it, and both are at risk, it's just a different style of match. More fun in my eyes as the commander is useful like he should be.

    Edit: Remember I have played since the game was released in alpha, through ant spam, com wars, com pushes with fabbers repair (commander cost 1500 metal iirc), t2 air rushes, t2 veh rush, dox spam, the clopse build, anything you can think of has been op and has been the meta, this just switches it up and makes the gameplay more fun in my eyes. Prolongs the t1 game, more decision making, more risk, more excitment. Anything is better than the current meta, wether it just be change for a bit or something else.

    If the com push was OP, win 100% of the time doing the same build and the only way to counter is to also com push then we would have a problem. Been able to win a lost game because of this or able to lose a won game makes it more fun. Not, I'm behind, his spam is more than my spam. Crash my blob into his blob. Hide my commander in teh base because he is useless other than for eco is not fun in my eyes.
    Last edited: July 19, 2016
    stuart98, cdrkf and elodea like this.
  5. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    "What you talking about? You come on here with the initial video saying that commander repair is OP and ruins the game because games will be over in 5 minutes. I said no it's not cause it easily countered if you play it properly. See; argument and counter argument. Now you are changing the rules of the argument cause you found out you were mistaken."

    This is how eldoea tested commander reclaim:
    http://puu.sh/q6XQl/a9c1a5cda9.png
    http://puu.sh/q6XTP/3ea8c27193.png

    According to elodea commander reclaim was OP if the other side wasn't commander reclaiming, since one side had a clear eco advantage. Now I want to see what possible counters you have without repairing your commander since this would not give good test results leading into commander repairing being OP or not. I did not include this in my post since I thaught this was commen sence.

    Another example, if both sides commander reclaim it shouldn't change the outcome of the game. But does it according to you make it more enjoyable to watch? No. The same goes for commander repair. The side who pushes his commander towards the other base has an advantage because it locks down one part of the map.

    "So what do you want to test? The only difference to vanilla is the com costs less to reclaim and repair. That pretty much rules out reclaim. So then we test if the push is strong... of course it is, both players can do it, and both are at risk, it's just a different style of match. More fun in my eyes as the commander is useful like he should be."

    Indeed, the only difference is his metal value. However, this doesn't mean it isn't a big difference. If we were to buff the health of a leveler to the health of a commander, it does mean a leveler will become very OP.
    http://puu.sh/q6YHj/b270ddf19a.png
    Wasn't the meaning of True Economy also to increase spectators enjoyment? Because I think 5- 8 min games will be so much fun to watch!

    Note: I'm not against commander repair, it's just way to effective with "True Economy".
    Last edited: July 19, 2016
  6. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Well then is the test actually 'does this mod consistently result in short games? Or were the example replays simply a result of a stronger player being aggressive?'... that would suggest that the test case be you and clopse play a few rounds and assess if this change really does force a short game, or with equally matched opponents in fact makes little difference?

    The repair rates we're talking don't appear much stronger than in spring rts (BA mod), which does feature a lot of aggressive commander play, but also games between equally skilled players can be fairly long (in range of 10 to 30 mins for a good 1 v 1). A strong commander needn't be a bad thing (I've had games where myself and opponent both pushed on different fronts, resulting in us swapping bases on forge for example :p).
    stuart98 likes this.
  7. wmurderface

    wmurderface Member

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    @elodea why have you not replied to my post? It seems pretty obvious to me that you are not interested in dicussing a possible fix for reclaim with actual experienced and active community members. With your attitude towards me and qzipco raising this topic, it looks highly unlikely that anything constructive will come out of this thread.
    xankar, boagriusfiroz and Qzipco like this.
  8. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Balance changes are easy to mod I think, maybe the answer is to create a different mod as a counter proposal...?
  9. wmurderface

    wmurderface Member

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    @cdrkf we will make the best com reclaim fix this game has ever seen...and true economy will be completly blown out of the water
  10. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    "one mod to rule them all"?
  11. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    btw @clopse:

    if you're still interrested in my "shite", here are the maps:
    -Forge
    -Lock
    -Lockery
    -smelter
    -The forgery

    My idea was to play 4 games on every map. If you have other maps you would like to be used or don't agree with any of the maps I picked, please let me know.
  12. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    I don't respond to inflammatory bait. There was so much wrong with your post that I judged it an ill use of time trying to untangle that ball of string. At the end of the day not much benefit would come from it.

    Why do you want a reply from me anyway? Where's your unbiased expert? Arn't you supposed to be taking my posts with a grain of salt? Presenting yourself under the pretense of "only wanting discussion" is clearly an attempt at baiting me for god knows why. I'm not going to fight. You've done enough to deconstruct your position by yourself

    *Where all this hate is coming from I have no idea. Instead of replying, I suggest you go look up what community modification means. Looking back, this whole thread had a giant warning sign and I should have just stayed out of it to begin with. Grind your axe on the strawman all you want.
    Last edited: July 19, 2016
  13. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    Some one critized me for my behaviour and work. Oh wait, I don't have any arguments. Defense mechanisme activated. Calculating best response..... You're just a troll, stop baiting me. Personal attacks, lie. Thread annihilated.
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  14. wmurderface

    wmurderface Member

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    @elodea its unfair for you to degrade our ideas on how a com reclaim mod should look like as hate towards you, this is absurd and absolutely not true. I dont even know you.

    As i said earlier i do not mean any disrespect on this thread, only constructive criticism and debate on the subject of fixing com reclaim for tourneys.
    xankar and Qzipco like this.
  15. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    Dont take my abrasiveness as an insult, I'm just horribly forward at times. Maps seem fine, but wont be able to do it before thursday, how long your holidays for? Just bought a new pc today, my gaming laptop wasnt able to stream and play PA. I think the 20 games will be fun, even if they just øast 5-8 minutes, 99% of 1v1s are over in this time anyhows.
  16. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    As a control you should play a few warm up games without they mod imo (to give a frame of reference to you vs @Qzipco in a standard match). That would allow some opportunity for objective comparisons.
  17. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    My holiday will last for 10 days. So we could plan it in about 2,5 weeks I guess.
  18. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    i played my second game in a long time yesterday against him, he com pushed me without true economy and won.
    cdrkf likes this.
  19. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    that were telly strats and turret creep, can't call that a commander push.
  20. nimzodragonlord

    nimzodragonlord Member

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    Why did you choose guitar for the Bach Partita instead of a violin? @Qzipco

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