True Economy

Discussion in 'Videos And Replays!' started by Qzipco, July 8, 2016.

  1. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    Watch the video again pls. If only 1 combat fabber can almost repair 0.5% health / second. Imagine what 5 or 6 can do.
  2. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    Using mods in tourneys is great. They provide a huge pool of casts and replays between good players to analyze, and also generate a volume of discussion about a mod that otherwise would be difficult to achieve. Some people might complain about not keeping a stable metagame, to which I say, you whippersnappers have it easy. Back in my day, we just took whatever the balance was that day and rolled with it. We had patches that came out not two days before tourneys that upended balance completely. We had tourneys that had a patch happen right in the middle of them. Not a year ago we had the mystery mayhem tourney three days after TITANS' release. We didn't know what we were doing, I mean, people actually built Icarii and stuff. Icarii! Did we complain? No, we figured out what the hell we were doing and we built a new meta.

    tl;dr let the mod be used in tourneys, let's see what comes of it.
    nosebreaker, elodea and Nicb1 like this.
  3. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    [​IMG]
  4. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Yeah you can repair quickly... if you have the eco to support. That 0.5% a second costs 30 m/s. If we look at 6 fabbers then yeah, 3% a second repair (so 33 seconds to full health) *however* that repair comes at a cost of 180 m a second. You don't have access to that kind of resource generation early game. Having that kind of repair late game is a good idea imo given the strength of t2...

    The only thing that looks wrong in your videos is the com push forcing a boxing match at the start. A strong commander is something PA should have. It should be a choice between using the commander offensively or as a builder. However that should be balanced by the speed of the commander giving people time to build up a sufficient force to pose a threat.

    This is sadly something that got lost during development of PA to the point the commander is neigh on useless after the first 5 minutes of gameplay (and in vanilla repair is essentially impossible).

    PA needs to diversify in opening build options. That's something TA and BA (spring engine) have down to a fine art. Multiple opening builds based on different strengths and weaknesses are interesting. The current meta of 'com stays in base, is reclaimed for metal and does nothing else all game' isn't. As things stand every game starts bot lab -> combat fab -> reclaim com and rush t2.

    I mean as I've said this specific change may not be the answer, but do you not agree that the current state of things remove pretty much all choice from a player for the opening of the game?

    I mean given what we can mod, what other options are there atm? I'd like to see t2 delayed personally. I've always enjoyed the t1 phase of game more (focusing on territory control and skirmishing).
    elodea likes this.
  5. nosebreaker

    nosebreaker Post Master General

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    The Nosebreaker is here.
    To Help.. The NOsebreaker says He told you so.
    THe Nosebreaker would Thinks all of the problem comes from the low cost of t2 and t2 units
    If you were and Most of you will remember back when this game was first started
    The Nosebreaker said THis will happen..... !!!! !!!!! ! !!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !!! ! :(

    There needs to be dedicated parts of the game eg starting build.. raiding ... fighting with t1. then a scarey part were you go into t2 cause your using up resorces meant for t1 tanks to push you up a tech level... then the end game figting

    as it stands now:
    Com reclaim mean .. BANG spawn reclaim dox fac air fac reclaim self t2 tank ..... win game.. require. 2 and half mins tops..................
    Seriously .................... seriously.......... this is not luscious !!!!!
    If your reclaiming your com there should be a percent chance any second, based on amount of metal stripped out that your com ..... Just blows the *&^^ up. yeap you got it *&^&** dead...

    holy s*&^t the Nosebreaker reclaimed the kombobulon and the flux capasitor has gone and blowed up on me!!!

    All you guys babble on about awww my feelings awww cry cry cry my feelings ... Triggered

    YOu want to be shrecked by early t2 all the time keep the com reclaim in.
    ONe counter Is increase the destruction capability of Dox.... as a deterant to com reclaimers.....
    So DOx are Underpowerd ! Finnaly all you crybabies now bow to The Nosebreaker...
    Bow

    Wait THe Nosebreaker sees a flash flood of Tears heading his way ..........................
    Dam it woman get the towle the tears are coming out of The Screen....... ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    n00n, elodea, dom314 and 1 other person like this.
  6. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    @clopse, which days are you able to play next week. I'll be going on vacation thursday, so the matches have to be played befor that.
  7. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    Pencil in wednesday, you didnt answer my earlier question though? Are your rushes all ins every game?
  8. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    nope
  9. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    So what are we proving? Com pushing done well will work and I'd use it too. Thought we were proving that the rush strategy doesnt work, if countered properly?
    elodea likes this.
  10. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    We're not here to test commander push. This thread's about true economy and we're testing the mod, incase didn't know.
    wmurderface likes this.
  11. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    Stop being a ****.

    "Fair enough. Here by I courtly invite Clopse and elodea to test the mod with me, since you guys probably know more strategies which can possibly counter this strat"

    I won't be dealing with your shite. Good luck.
    elodea likes this.
  12. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    I think you firstly haven't watch all the replays, since you would know by then that I wasn't "rushing" my comm forward every game, but used different strategies like t2 rush befor moving my commander forward, furthermore, how are you divining a rush? At what time becomes something rushing or isn't considered rushing. Secondly you still don't really get this threat. I made this thread to show case the possible exploit repairing 4 times at fast. It's not about rushing anything here. Also you don't have to be so rude sir.
  13. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    I call a spade a spade.

    You mentioned in your first video that games will last 5 minutes with this strategy. That was the rush timing I was working off. I disagreed stating the players you were playing reacted badly. This was proven in the replays, there was a reason you changed strategy.

    I never argued that it wasn't strong, I'm sure it is. But the risk to return diminishes greatly the longer into the game. The early start you showed can be easily countered.

    You probably win 95% of games without this strat. What's your odds of winning with it?
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  14. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    So basically you first call me a bitch, but yet you're backing out or that's atleast what I got out of you're sentence "I won't be dealing with your shite. Good luck." Yes the games in my video lasted 5-6 min, but I challenged you after I posted the replays. I asked you to test the mod with me, since you and elodea obviously know more strategies to counter the repair strat. I didn't ask you to test commander rush pushes with since that's not the problem "True Economy" is bringing.
  15. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    Nah called you a d1ck not a bitch cause I felt you were being condescending. Understand better now what you consider the problem and still disagree. As I mentioned above, why risk your commander that way when you will win without it? It is a strong strategy and works both ways, but it does cost a lot to repair the commander. That's were you will lose the game against someone that can defend properly against your push.
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  16. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    When you build a storage you will build up enough eco in that storage to repair your commander, since the metal cost is only 6250 and your commander is walking which will lead to you wasting a lot of metal if you haven't build a storage. You have said that you know possible counters against this strat and you've also accepted to play me. So show me how to defend against the commander repair push. You guys were critizing admiral on his defend skills, so I atleast expect you to show me some proper defend skills then.
    Last edited: July 18, 2016
  17. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Ok so I think we've established the rules of the match. @Qzipco thinks com repair with this mod is too strong, @clopse doesn't.

    So that suggests that the rule is clopse must not use com repair, Qzipco *must* in all games. If Qzipco is correct he'll be able to win with his com without Clopse being able to stop him. If not, Clopse should win. Strikes me as fairly simple :)
    Qzipco likes this.
  18. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Yes you can store that amount- but 6250 metal is a t2 lab + quite a few t2 units which can wreck a com pretty easily, even if you are repairing it imo... I want to see you and Clopse play a few games to test this. I think your fairly evenly matches as players so should be a worthwhile test. My money is still on units being more effective if used correctly.... but I'm happy to be proved wrong :p
  19. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Nah thats not how you do it. The ability to comm push and repair is dissuaded itself by the ability to repair commander in defense.

    It's kinda like saying T2 is too strong, lets test this by giving one person T2 and another person only T1. You have to test with both players having the same toolkit.
    stuart98 likes this.
  20. wmurderface

    wmurderface Member

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    @elodea , yes my previous post was "bait"...im trying to bait you into a conversation on how we can come up with an actual fix for commander reclaim strats. I hope you are somewhat grateful that there is actually a conversation around this mod (even though you are dismissing all apposing arguments) because with a bit more work i probably would have voted to use something like this. I dont mean any disrespect on this thread im just voicing my opinion on this subject and hoping you'll take my thoughts and others into consideration.

    I'm more then confident you can come up with a better ''fix'' then this and if you dont somebody else probably will. I dont think the community should or will settle for anything less then a well tested and balanced com reclaim fix mod for tourneys, if one ever does even get implemented.

    BTW i think the polls on the vote not to use this mod was pretty clear evidence that a majority of people think there is something wrong with this mod in its current state.
    xankar and Qzipco like this.
  21. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    So if both players are using the same tactic, what does this prove? The argument has revolved around the com being neigh on unstoppable with repair...?

    Essentially what we're trying to prove (or otherwise) is does this change simply mean players are shoehorned into com repair strats rather than reclaim? In which case we've simply traded one problem for another.

    Surely to disprove that you should be able to counter an aggressive com by using the resources saved by not focusing on repair to pump out more units, defences and such to repel the opposing commander? Even with repair, @Qzipco com had minimal support and looked vulnerable to me in those replays. You both suggested targeting the combat fabs could be a solution....
    elodea likes this.

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