True Economy

Discussion in 'Videos And Replays!' started by Qzipco, July 9, 2016.

  1. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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  2. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Why isn't this in the True Economy thread?
  3. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    because it's a video and stuff
  4. Clopse

    Clopse Post Master General

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    This is strong, same as in before but now with combt fabber for support. sniping your cfs with commander or air and dropping to kill your energy will leave you in a bad situation against someone that knows the rush game.
    elodea likes this.
  5. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    But if you want to ensure its seen (by the author) best to put it in the relevant thread. Also means people looking into the mod get a all the pertinent info.
  6. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    You are more then welcome to post it there quitch
  7. Alpha2546

    Alpha2546 Post Master General

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    I'm curious why not discuss the complaints with the author in search for the best solution? Two good minds talking about fixes for this issue sounds like a win in results in my eyes. The community would benefit from this stuff too. Its not lazyness since you're more then willing to show the weaknesses in de the balance mod.
    nosebreaker likes this.
  8. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    I don't really care for the mod. I just don't wanted to show that it's a very very bad idea to use it in tournaments since you can do these ridiculous commander pushes with it.
  9. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Do you have any actual good replays/pa stat links? Honestly all i see is someone beating on noobs.

    You like to talk about not using this or that in tournaments, I'd suggest you start by not using collision exploits. It should be self explanatory why this is an issue.
  10. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=448412
    http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=448409
    The difference is that your mod is not in the game, however, commander reclaim is. Your mod is trying to fix commander reclaim, but it might brings a bigger issue, commander push. When using true economy, commander repair becomes 4 times as efficient (see the video). I do think commander reclaim is an issue and that's why I myself haven't used it in the tourney (only on zetox but that was because I was playing a 2v1 due to admiral disconnecting) , can't speak for admiral though. Maybe commander reclaim should be abrogated, maybe it should not. But to test mods in tournaments that haven't been tested befor hand just seems kind of ridicules to me. Especially with so many new players who joined the community lately.
    Last edited: July 11, 2016
  11. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    yea, i've seen those replays already. Just beating up noobies.

    You have a way of twisting the intentions of others. Proeleert only wanted to run a tournament without commander reclaim. This wasn't about testing.
  12. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    I guess ubers are noobies lol
  13. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    http://puu.sh/pXNVs/5ea4277969.png
    experimenting is testing. http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/experiment
  14. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Citing rank doesn't mean you can ignore how badly someone plays. Now, I don't deny the possibility that true economy is, or will turn out to be absolute crap. But you're sorely lacking in sound evidence to make your case.

    I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill discussing dumb stuff. Proeleert was experimenting with the concept of using balance mods in official tournaments - in this case to address commander reclaim. He didn't care what particular mod was used as was demonstrated by making a poll. And don't think your double think hasn't been lost on me either. Somehow true economy is untested even though you've tested it enough to yell from the rooftops.

    Now for some real talk.

    You exploit unintended collision bugs to push your commander where he shouldn't be 3 times quicker than a rule abiding player. Putting aside the unethical nature of this behaviour, a significant portion of the test result is attributable to Comm push alone.

    It only works against people who haven't seen it before, and it performs essentially the same regardless of whether you repair or not. Not only is Comm push easily countered by turrets/walls/grenadier as usual, but both players can repair their commander. Ironically, the only difference from walking across the map only to chuck all your metal into repairing instead of production is you'll lose easier.
    Last edited: July 11, 2016
  15. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    Exactly, I tested it for one hour and was already be able to make an exploit with it. Seems to me there is much more to be "exploited". It's not about "unethical nature of this behaviour", that's just a stupid argument. With your mod it's possible to repair your commander super fast, and therefor it will be "exploited" just like commander reclaim. It's not about directly attacking the commander anymore. It's about locking down you enemy base and taking all the metal on the map which will therefor give you an insane eco/factory advantage. Also, your opponent can't rush t2 easily anymore when this happens, because he can't commander reclaim. "Stop with the semantic games". Then goes into the fact that I said that the mod was not tested instead of it being tested for just an hour. O yeah, calling commander push unethical comming from someone who uses it occasionally is pretty hypocritical. "It only works against people who haven't seen it before", yet I've played aknod twice and I still won."Ironically, the only difference from walking across the map only to chuck all your metal into repairing instead of production is you'll lose easier." You clearly haven't watched the replay on forge then, 140 metal on forge is pretty descent in 4:31. "Not only is Comm push easily countered by turrets/walls/grenadier as usual, but both players can repair their commander." This argument is invalid, if we look at commander reclaim, because both player can use commander reclaim aswell. Still, to too many player think this a problem, right?
    Last edited: July 11, 2016
  16. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    This is all i got out of your post.

    "Using bugs to win means the problem is definitely the mod, not the bug".

    "Air fab reclaim commander imba omgz".

    "Actually, it's not really about repairing your commander - it's about comm pushing and locking them in their base!....."

    "I could totally punish this comm push exploit with some turrets and pelters and grenadiers, but naah i'm going to build t2 instead!".

    "oh crap, my arguments are already failing me halfway through. Activate the false accusations to claim high moral ground!"

    "Even though Aknod didn't change a thing, i'm going to use this as a concrete example of why elodea is wrong!"

    "I wonder if elodea will start suspecting I paid Aknod to spam sparks all the time. Nah, he'll never guess since he don't watch my replays"

    "Everyone knows people proactively reclaim their commander just for the money, but I wonder if i can trick elodea into thinking they only do it because the other person does it. That way I can set up a false equivalence and make people think they need to proactively repair for no benefit because other people do it too!"
  17. cdrkf

    cdrkf Post Master General

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    Ok So I watched your vid.

    I don't really see that the com repair is the deciding factor why it was so powerful. It probably helps, but honestly what you did that *actually won* was:

    1 - Use dox to push your com at greatly increased speed to get into a com box situation early
    2 - Good use of walls, you com + units were hitting his, not vice versa
    3 - You had better support in the form of turrets, and you have kept your units with your com. In all the clips your opponent (probably out of frustration) moved their com into a vulnerable position, on it's own with little support.

    My feeling is you could repeat the same experiment, and not repair your commander at all, and you'd still win.

    I'm not actually against being able to repair units. This was a core mechanic of TA- and repair in TA and Spring *didn't cost metal* (only energy). I actually think that should be the case in PA, as it meant good micro and unit control + repair could keep a small force alive against a larger but less organised opposing force. That is something PA sorely lacks.

    I agree with your sentiment we do need to be careful to not swap one problem (com reclaim) with another however. I just don't really see that the mod is the reason for this 'exploit' winning. I think you've just highlighted that the com push collision mechanics need to be fixed (i.e. the commander should push small units, not the other way around).
    Quitch likes this.
  18. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    Literally the worst reponse I've seen in my life, gg elodea. You provided no arguments what so ever, only assumption and personal attacks.

    "oh crap, my arguments are already failing me halfway through. Activate the false accusations to claim high moral ground!" ~ Here's a video of you commander pushing you published on your on channel, since you accuse me of false accusations:


    "Using bugs to win means the problem is definitely the mod, not the bug". ~ so repairing your commander is a bug now? There's just so much I don't know about this game still.

    "With your mod it's possible to reclaim your commander super fast, and therefor it will be "exploited" just like commander reclaim". Reclaim should have been "repair".

    "I wonder if elodea will start suspecting I paid Aknod to spam sparks all the time. Nah, he'll never guess since he don't watch my replays"~ what was it about making false accusations again? O, yeah right. You just made one.

    Give me some valid arguments next time
  19. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    @cdrkf I will provide some more clips for you. However if you look at my video at around 39 seconds in, my combat fabbers get shot down and all of a sudden my commander health starts dropping massively.
    "I just don't really see that the mod is the reason for this 'exploit' winning". With this mod it will be 4 times as efficient and fast to repair your commander, which makes it far easier to heal him fast. If you push your commander up to the enemy base it will guaranteed loose a lot of health. This mod is ofcourse not the cause of commander pushing, but it makes commander pushing OP. This is one of the main reasons why uber has increased the metal value of the commander so great. People use to "exploit" this in beta/alpha (I don't know when).
    Last edited: July 11, 2016
  20. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Oh you misunderstand me, I wasn't giving any valid arguments as much as i was simply paraphrasing your terrible ones.

    If a video from almost a year ago in a casual public game is your idea of gross hypocrisy, then i don't think we will be able to agree on much of anything.

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