Towers need to be stronger...

Id also love a t1 tank based counter like the grenadier, so that even if they are strong, we will have a counter.

I remember Uber saying something about changing the ranges of tanks/towers so tanks can shoot at towers, but towers can't shoot at tanks. Or something.

Can't remember.

I think the towers are fairly balanced against T1 units, especially with walls.

However, I did not test them much against T2 units in this build so I don't know about that.

I thank that was about having the T1 tank have the same range as a tower, so that the tank can shoot out the towers walls in safety.

Which is a little weird, as the tank is kinda bad against walls.

But I suppose with the inferno, the tank line isn't really much of a 'thinker' kinda class, and more of a straight forward brute.

Which is also kinda cool, and would love to see it played into more.

I sincerely hope they do not make tanks out range turrets, or increase their range at all from what it is currently. As it stands, we need more unit composition diversity in this game and not less. People should be taking on risks when going pure tank, pure bot, or pure air.

I am really happy with the interaction between ant, grenadier, and inferno right now. They all have different play styles, and adjusting tanks to have greater range just for the sake of turrets, will give away one of the key advantages grenadiers have over tanks.

I do believe the current tank range, is the same as the turrets.

We do; It's called the inferno.

Indeed, I was think more of a siege then assault.

Walls don't help in this build as much as previous ones... at least not in the games I've played. Virtually every game I've played on this build has been won with blobs of grenadiers, or blobs of mostly grenadiers and some infernos, walls are completely ineffective against grenadiers and infernos chew through them pretty fast.

Which is good, isn't it? That's a nice counter in my eyes (Although I could prefer a more traditional siege unit to shoot and scoot with).

A good counter to infernos and grenadiers is the cheap and expendable Dox, is controlled correctly (Don't run at infernos) can kite and kill the tanky inferno's easily, and grenadiers are easy to chew through.

I'm not saying it's bad, just that walls don't nearly help as much as they used to. Pre-grenadier we obviously needed something to handle walls at T1. I do think turrets need a bit of a buff, because there was a counter added with the grenadier bot and at the same time they also got nerfed.

Undo combo on keyboard too OP when redo doesn't exist / doesn't work on Win 7. -_-

The problem I see right now is that there was there was two levers pulled instead of one. Devs say they balance by "pulling one lever" and that one pulls others in random directions, but this was not a single lever.

Uber decided to buff some ground units to be more survivable because of reasons. This had an after effect on how powerful turrets were. Tanks and vehicles in general feel much more survivable, and it isn't grenadier spam as much as it was anymore. This would have been a good test change if they didn't touch turret stats.

Now, the defense towers were pretty powerful in the previous patch. They wiped armies off the map, and were really cheap for the overall power they came with. They decided to nerf turrets as well, making them nigh-useless in majority of situations. This should never have happened. Tank HP was buffed so they would have been more survivable going against the same turrets that still one-shot bots right now in their nerfed state. It doesn't help that bots are quite cheap to replace. They are, arguably, the 'armed angry mob' of PA, and when going against turrets, overwhelming them with so many fast and nimble targets is the bot's single advantage they should really take and run with.

This

hits the nail on the head i think we can do a better job of dressing the issue. right now i think defending gives you almost no advantage, attacking is almost always the winning move. I think a lot of the better players are happy with this because it has resulted in more fast paced & exciting game. Down side at the moment there a no tactics, or strategies required when assaulting.

i can set up line of laser turrets behind a wall with grenadiers supporting, with a choke point with mines and extra laser turrets, and blob of infernos will march straight through the wall as if it wasn't there, and shrug off the laser fire. mines lay un used and the one click steam roll assault wins over my heavily micro-ed defense. before some one chimes in with a metal calculation, tactics and strategy should be rewarded if its just going to be a pure maths problem every time id play excel not PA.

i personally think the problem lies with the inferno, they remove walls so fast you might as well not have them. with such weak walls it's hard to make choke points and strong points that could be interesting to attack or hold when the terrain is generally un inspired flatness (the defending the 360 degrees of flat is part of the problem), and if you buff the turrets to much then we end up with the slower stale less interesting game.

In terms of game play the strength of defenses have a heavy influence on the pace of the game, and we don't want to return to the days of old king turtle. one turret should not hold back half an army. some suggestions for pulling other leavers, so we don't lose the fast paced feel of the game.

• Increase the variance in the terrain to allow for more choke points, ie) rivers with crossing and plateaus (more opportunities to defend other than the castle gates)
• Make walls have to be targeted manually more like really strong wreckage. (stops the on click steam roll and the wall being op against arty)
• stop the inferno from damaging walls (stops the one click steam roll)
• Reduce the speed of the inferno , maybe buff the range or the speed of the dox, allow for more countering before the base assault. so if the infernos make it to you base you deserved to be punished.
  
• Reduce the size of the turret (allowing more turrets to be grouped together, and harder to simply ignore)

and if we have to buff the defenses

• Buff the pelter so its more of anti death ball weapon?
• increase the damage and range of the tower, but reduce its ROF. at least the turret will "feel" likes its been overwhelmed rather than it "feeling" like it did nothing but massage the infernos.

• More choke points would be nice; I'm sure Uber's working on it, though it's a little difficult with rounded and randomly generated planets. Try setting your height variance over 100 by going into the little box to the right of the slider and changing the number.

• Walls aren't targeted, they fire's targeted at turrets but they hit walls. (except infernos as they target the first thing to get in their range) If you made it manual it'd be some unnecessary micro as your units won't be doing their job.

• The whole point of the inferno is to break walls...

• Reduced speed of all tanks more like, dox needs many buffs as they're next to useless, almost as much so as the current bomb bots...

• Turret size atm seems pretty perfect imho.

• Pelters shouldn't really be the anti-blob weapon, they should be the inbetweener, they're good for taking out some single units as well as some small groups, Lobber (Holkins) is for taking out larger groups which is why it's so inaccurate, and the catapult is for taking out high health, high priority units.

• All three turrets should be differentiated, they're not all one entity mind you. Triple should be low damage, high ROF anti-mob weapon, inaccurate with low damage but able to damage a large amount of enemies quickly with it's intense ROF. The double is your middle man, it's good at defending some decent groups and taking out some higher healthed units, mediocre rate of fire, mediocre damage, and medium range, somewhat like the T1 tank or slightly larger. The last is the single which is low ROF, high alpha damage, a sniper turret you could say. It has the longest range of all turrets (Though still under the pelters range, and direct fire) it does high alpha damage with very low ROF which equals out to some regular DPS, it can only take one unit at a time, but can be useful against higher healthed units or straggler units messing with your metal.

This is all my opinion of course!

The terrain, provides little opportunities to defend or hold points away from your main base, which leads the winning strategy of maximum sprawl. Forgive me for comparing the unfinished PA to greatest game of all time, but TA had plenty of maps that interesting features to assault and defend. I hope uber have a bit more up there sleeve when it comes to the planet generator, because the most you can hope for on most maps is crack to spice it up (possible overly harsh), and i know this is short of the concept ... but without strategic points away from your base to fight over, leads you fight at the front gates.

Assuming the terrain will be slow coming and your on the flat and level with me how would defend against infernos ? once they get outside the walls your pretty much done unless you can beat the attacking army with your own. attempting to kite, will cost you all your buildings and tears will flow as your own buildings provide direct fire cover for the infernal BBQ, why even bother with grens at the rate the infernos chew through the walls who needs to shoot over them? you hardly even need to think to win this sort of assault.

The only way i can see to counter this is in its current state is to always be attacking, and never let yourself get to this position, or at the very least fight far enough away to allow you some amount of kiting.

I agree adding more micro would detract from the game (<3 area commands) but i think there must be a better solution to balance than simply buffing or nerfing tanks and turrets, that would add more depth to the game, i think alot of the ground combat on the field is starting to "feel" about right. If the walls were inferno proof you could at least make them go the long way around giving you time to damage them before the BBQ started and give more of a reason for the enemy to bring grens to fire over the walls, you might even have to think about which angle your attacking from a bit more.

The poor pelter is for another thread i'm sure, soon as i see my opponent building a pelter your almost know your going to win, because why you would ever build one slow pop gun over 6 infernos or 10 tanks, only the most absurd amount of walls or clever placement on the rarest of maps will ever change that equation the current built, in defense or attack its currently a waste.

I think your right about the the current turrets more variance than good, better, best, would be nice to see.

increase turret range a bit, lower by 50 metal or so. I believe that's what's needed. If it's fragile, a bit of range + walls will help it. The lower cost makes them a tad more expendable.

They don't need extra range, that's why we have walls, and pelter's.