Total Biscuit

coulda woulda shoulda ... how should they know that beforehand? it's not like they could exactly plan out the whole unitpool beforehand especialy with orbital and the naval problems ... those were all made step by step ... there needs to be a base first ... and the bluehawk aswell as the sniper gil-e were the latest bots to be included .. by that time a lot time and money has been invested already as there was a lot of experimenting and adjusting with the engine to be made ... it is one reason we got the unitcannon this late ... but we got it .. and we will likely get more and eventualy more intresting units ... it is simply a fact that pa is still basic at its core but it is also still young ... it simply is not the same case with any other rts ...

it is one thing to have ideas and wishes ..

From the optics PA got very many well designed units: The Doxes are just perfect toy soldiers, the Bumblebees are bringing in a very unique bomber design! Stingrays are feeling very mechanical, the orbital and DeepSpaceRadar´s unfolding animation is just looking great and the Kestrels---well, they are just so sweet!

Problem: The most common units like Ants, Infernos, Leveler, Spinner, Vanguards, Orcas, Slammer and some of the buildings like the LaserDefenseTowers feature very exhausting designs. They don´t look unique at any point and you´ll look at them quite often...
...and this is really not good. The game does WYSIWYG so well that it´s a little bit surprising that most of the common units doesn´t give you much to see at all...

Uber "knows their stuff". These are the same people that built Total Annihilation. They built Supreme Commander. Supreme Commander 2. Some of the Command & Conquer series. Plenty of other games as well. There's a massive amount of knowledge in their background, more than enough to respect highly at professional levels. They definitely already know what works and what doesn't.

A unique unit pool isn't that difficult. The balance numbers are what take extreme amounts of time to test out. You gotta prioritize unit design above balance when starting fresh. Unfortunately PA nearly fails entirely on both.

Pretty much this. Unfortunately, that's basically exactly what we have for almost the entire unit pool, buildings included.

amazing. everything he sais is spot on.

he even exposes why sup com 2 is so little fun for those more pro players unbeknownst to himself

a great watch I do recommend anyone who knows one of the three games watch, to fix their predjudice about the other two.

none of those games ever used an engine that supports multiple spherical battlefields ... it is not the same ...
they made that engine from scratch with its possibilities, limitations and issues for creating units ...

Not really, the unit code is really really similar to red alert 3's unit code.

The engine handles the planet to unit stuff.

BTW, forgot to say but whoever said FAF is dead doesn't know what's up.


we have seasonal themeing in game now!

if it is that similar
why have modders such a hard time then including more complex units such as a multiunittransport that isnt just the austreus with a different integer or ships with multiple turrets why cant modders create hovercrafts? why are they asking for more "hooks"?

Well we actually do have multiunit transports (In RCBM for exsample), however such units don't know how to automatically load a bunch of units at once, and have no advanced UI like in supcom.

The battleship, frigate and destroyer all have multiple turrets, so that's in.

As for hovercraft, I don't think there is even a unit type for that, as no unit in the game has that movement type, so without being able to declare it ourselves, it's currently impossible to my knowledge.

Some things more advanced then that have no current implementation in the code we can't access, such as the game's engine and the like, so more "hooks" would give modders access to more stuff to be used in, on, for, and with units and projectiles.

"the units are kinda dull"

Sounds a lot like what the community has been saying for a while. The units need a lot more variety.

I don't think we need experimentals because those lack strategic depth, but the units do need variety and counters amongst the unit base.

We already have balance mods that add a lot of variety and character.

so i take it it isnt that simple when the engine doesnt allow it and people dont have access to the neccesary libraries ...
otherwise we may had submersed subs and hovercrafts long ago ...

You got it.

which also means in order for uber themselfes to create more intresting and complex units they need to work on the engine first which again takes time ... and time is money ... they had to make cuts to have something that works first and foremost ... and what have we/they said about release? it's the foundation from which they wanted to go further ...

Well that's one way of looking at it.

They could just allocate more to begin it with cover more stuff, rather then working with little and cutting stuff.

depends on resources and difficulty implementing said thing ... unitcannon remember?

Sorta makes me want bigger units in PA.

See you got the point there, money doesn't compensate for lack of creativity

You have an rts that deals with massive armies, across multiple spherical battlefields simultaneously, incorporating planet to planet unit canons, the ability to play pool with planets and even death star like super weapons and your accusing uber of a 'lack of creativity' ?!

This is by far the most innovative rts we've had in years. So they've kept the basic units simple... If that was all there was to this game then you'd have an argument however it's unfair to look at them in isolation. The units are simple to help compensate for the much more complex theatre within which they are used.

comparibly to supcom FA they didn´t have much money to begin with just sayin ...
so yea of course it doesn´t ... however creating creative stuff takes time and it is much harder when on limited budget ... because you know ... yo gotta pay for your employes and equipment and stuff ...

The strategic theatre is definitely complex, but the units within it don't match up. You spend just as much time with the units as you do with the maps themselves. Simple is a very generic term I think. Simple visually, simple mechanically, simple AI-ly? (ok shutup I know that was bad).

The units themselves are basic in that they have no individuality. That's the most simple thing to do, and Uber has plenty of experience with doing just that. Making units awesome. Yet they have not. I don't mean to say the units themselves should be complex in every fashion, because that would take way too much time. The design philosophy on the units has much to be asked of, though. Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander had plenty of examples where units had immense personality to differentiate them from others. Some, better than others, that's a given, but I think there's a lot of ideas there that weren't looked at whatsoever.

Our unit pool has a few nice things, high arc Artillery, homing rockets (they're a bit wonky atm), sniper units, etc. Then we have Generic tank 1, Bigger Generic tank 2, Generic bot 1, Bigger Generic bot 2, etc, you get my point. We need more personality that isn't that hard to come UP with, and the implementation likely would have taken about the same as they already took with current units. Dumbfire rockets, rapid-fire lasers, burst-fire, shotgun, even stuff like the famed EMG (flash/peewee/brawler), autocannons (Maverick), Lightning (Zeus), direct fire artillery (Bertha), Rapid fire artillery, (Vulcan).. and that's just some of the original units from TA. There's plenty of personality in SupCom, and even moreso with all the massive mods and unit packs people release.

I see a lot of potential. Currently very wasted potential, but definitely potential nonetheless. I'd rather a smaller unit pool with much more personality that takes longer to implement than have a full roster which is primarily stagnant and boring. My problem is that this time and effort was already wasted long ago, and way more thought could have been put into it. Granted, with a low head-count, it may not have been viable, but it's sure as hell viable now, and has been for quite a while. Perhaps one day the unit roster will have another look taken at it, but I feel the modders may have to go above and beyond to show Uber the potential they sorely missed.