Thoughts on bots vs. vehicles: Is it possible that Uber might be on the right track?

Discussion in 'Balance Discussions' started by tehtrekd, July 31, 2014.

  1. tehtrekd

    tehtrekd Post Master General

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    So I was-- PUT DOWN THE PITCHFORKS AND HEAR ME OUT!

    *ah-hem* was playing the game Prototype today, at one point I had hijacked a tank and was going on a military killing spree, and this got me thinking.
    The military needed other tanks or helicopters in order to really be able to put a dent in the tank, their guns weren't doing much damage to it, however when they brought out rocket and grenade launchers they were able to do at least decent damage.

    I then turned off the PS3 and went to make this thread, because the relation between bots and tanks, while not perfect is what one would call realistic.

    In a real world scenario, people with guns simply aren't going to match up against a tank. A tank is a heavily armoured war machine made to suppress high amounts of gunfire.
    However, everything has a weakness. A tank isn't going to be very useful against helicopter gunships or explosives.

    If you compare this to Planetary Annihilation, the resemblances speak for themselves. It takes a large force of doxen to take out even a single tank, which makes sense (it'd make more sense if tank shots were as explosive as they are in real life but let's not get too carried away, here.)

    If you put in some grenadiers, who are using explosive shots, the tank will go down faster. This also makes sense.

    Now, as I said earlier, this system isn't perfect, but I no longer think it's the worst thing ever. There are ways for it to improve. (the grenadier could do with a damage and AoE buff, for example.)

    Just a thought.
  2. igncom1

    igncom1 Post Master General

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    So it turn out that if make dox bullets twice as fast, have half the damage but fire 25 time faster....they are op.

    But boy are they scalable.
  3. optimi

    optimi Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on whether Bots are supposed to be mechs capable of going toe to toe with armoured vehicles or squishy robo-infantry. Most seem to see them as the former, possibly due to TA, although I may be completely wrong.
  4. squishypon3

    squishypon3 Post Master General

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    Bots in TA were awesome, all hail the great Peewee. <3
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  5. epicblaster117

    epicblaster117 Active Member

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    Except the dox are full scale mechs not some infantry, just saying.
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  6. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Again, Join the CUB :)
  7. optimi

    optimi Well-Known Member

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    TA in general was awesome :D. I loved the unit variety.
    Sidenote- I played a bit of Statera earlier and I loved it. It feels close to TA with the units that are avaloable. Nice work!
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  8. apocatequil

    apocatequil Member

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    Well in this case, I would say that calling the Bots squishy infantry isn't quite right. I mean, I'm probably misremembering the lore when I say this, but aren't the Commander's armies supposed to be filled with nothing other than the Pinnacle of their technology? Therefore, their armies should only be populated by units and designs that are brutal and efficient, that any given unit only sacrifices in one area to gain in another.

    Bots aren't squishy infantry, they are terrain crawling, lightweight killing machines. And if they are useless, then why does the commander even build them?
  9. nixtempestas

    nixtempestas Post Master General

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    The problem is even a small group of tanks can decimate a much large (metal wise) group of dox.

    the other bots aren't too bad though.

    EDIT: oh ya, and the lack of AA makes them silly to use at any stage in the game, as combining them with vehicle air cover defeats their purpose (speed)
  10. vorell255

    vorell255 Active Member

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    How did you do this. Oh WAIT....some how you as a person running around "took out a tank".
    IF you want to go there I will. Infantry can actually be quite affective at taking out tanks. Of course in a head to head brawl tank wins. But with a little cunning of course soldiers can take them down. Sticks on the treads...throw a grenade down in and close the lid....etc etc.

    So we are in the future apparently everything is computers and robots....you already said it Hi-jacked...how about hacker bots!

    But in all seriousness your analogy goes both ways.
  11. optimi

    optimi Well-Known Member

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    The protagonist of Prototype isn't exactly a person :p.
  12. tehtrekd

    tehtrekd Post Master General

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    What optimi said.
    In prototype you play as someone capable of throwing cars and jumping over buildings. Not exactly your typical infantry soldier. Hijacking a tank is as easy as tearing off the entry hatch and eating everyone inside (yes. eating.)
  13. brianpurkiss

    brianpurkiss Post Master General

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    Not really sure what point you're trying to make... because modern day foot soldiers can't destroy a tank... means the Dox is balanced?

    The Doxes are simply mostly worthless. As soon as they meet resistance, you would have been better off building something else.
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  14. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    "We're not aiming for realism. We're aiming for awesome!"

    Doxes being useless is not awesome.
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  15. maskedcrash

    maskedcrash Active Member

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    So in other words... Dox being "realistic" is a good thing? Doxes aren't infantry. They are MECHAS.

    Damnit, I want to use my inner Eggman/Dr. Wily.
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  16. tehtrekd

    tehtrekd Post Master General

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    I'm not saying it's a good thing, where did I say it was a good thing? I'm just looking at the situation from another angle, if Uber is indeed making bots serve a sort of "human" role in the game, they're on the right track.

    It could still do with a hefty bit of improvement, and bots should still be a viable start, but them being less powerful than tanks isn't inherently bad.
  17. Nullimus

    Nullimus Well-Known Member

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    Here is a grand argument for calling the T1 tank an "ANT". Let not the diminutive nature of the name diminish the awesomeness that is a Tank, Even if it is a T1 fragile unit.
  18. apocatequil

    apocatequil Member

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    Bots aren't precisely typical infantry either. They don't have buildings or guerrilla warfare tactics on their side, nor do they have the capability of piloting stationary and mobile defenses. But also, typical infantry can often take down or take over tanks, which is why tanks are usually surrounded by infantry soldiers in situations where an ambush is a real threat: IE in the city or through a valley. Because the infantry can react faster and has a better field of vision, as well as the capability of carrying anti-tank weaponry. The solution to tanks, more often than other tanks, is infantry honestly. But that's primarily because war in real life is conducted in the way that offers higher survival rates, which means ambushes, sieges and flanking are the bulk of battling, rather than open faced confrontation.

    Bots just don't work like this. So there's no excuse for them to be weak in comparison to tanks, and there's even less excuse for them to be nearly worthless as a whole.
  19. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    So you are just saying, bots have 1/6 health of tanks, dox shoot 1/6 damage of tanks, tanks shoot 3x slower, and dox 1 hit kills dox.

    So, dox will kill 3 bots at same speed ant would kill 1 bot. Ants will do more dps.

    At the same time, make "Grenadiers" the bridge. They have really poor health, ants kill them 1 to 1. Grenadiers can cost just slightly less than ants, have poor dox health, and do same damage and rate of fire as ants. Grenadiers can dps buildings in raids, they just die way too easily for their cost. Wouldn't be bad against ants, but dox would destroy grenadiers.

    Hell, while I am pitching all this, make the vanguard's gun a dox machinegun. That way, the vanguard is "antibot" and useful while being equally useless in OP damage. It would also make their high health a threat.
  20. SatanPetitCul

    SatanPetitCul Active Member

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    Refering to real life to justify a video game mechanic is a very bad argument.

    This way of thinking leads nowhere because there is not a single part of the game which is realistic, or having a reference to the real life.
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