They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Created

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

It wasn't an argument either way.

Just pointing it out because logical reasons for thing for and against the inclusion of this wouldn't matter much because of the setting.

So instead of focusing on the little details, lets focus on the larger details rather then comparing the theoretical advantages and disadvantages of technology no one here could even possibly know about.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

What larger details? If you're not going to discuss the technical merits based on what we already know this discussion basically is "Do you want Divine Space Magic or Arcane Space Magic?". You want to compare one arbitrary label with no connection to reality with another equally arbitrary label just as unconnected from reality.

See previous "Cream Cake Technology" argument. If we know nothing about futuretech, you can't say that my sugary dessert-based armada isn't just as worthy of inclusion.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

I am not going to have this discussion again if you fail to see my point.

I have said what I wanted to say and that's it.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

It is not speculation. You have cherry picked some of statements without context by not including the follow up reasoning and arguments. The amount of resources contained within a galaxy are considerable. I go on to talk about just how common metal is in the galaxy and how carbon which is more common can be used as carbon fibre which is a great deal more resilient to attack than flesh is. One of the core arguments you use is that that you utilise all resources at your disposal because metal is rare. This is simply not true and if carbon can be used to make something that is heavily resilient, why would you tie it up in organics which require a very narrow set of environmental conditions to operate within and require more rare resources. A tank, aircraft or bipedal robot will resist more weapons fire than a unit which is partially organic and has organic requirements. They will also operate in environments where organics cannot. This makes organics niche which makes them far more inflexible when you are fighting across worlds which are not organic friendly.

Why do you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth? I have not said either of those things. Nor is that my argument. Firstly a lot can be learned from biology, brains, muscle, balance systems, sense integration and the list could go on. But the results of these research avenues do not have to be to stitch biology into a frame and put up with the disadvantages organic tissue has in combat with modern weaponry. Neural networking not brains, artificial muscle fibres made from carbon not muscle (this is not speculation as I provided a link before showing that this kind of research is being done now). I never said that all non-metallic research will have and should have been ignored.
Secondly, the only goal is destruction of the other side. I will say again that other materials can be used instead of metal, but organic tissue is not up to taking the same abuse as inorganic materials, it is as simple as that. If you pour time and research into trying to field whole organic units or cyborg units then you are going to lose against the enemy who poured resources and time into tanks, aircraft, nuclear weapons, you know, conventional weaponry which again is specifically designed to end organic lives.

No it really isn’t impossible to know, we know quite a bit about biology and we know quite a bit about conventional weaponry. Biology has requirements which are well known, they have operational tolerances which are also well known. I am basing my arguments on what we know of biology and technology and then extending it forward. You can’t just remove the material and environmental requirements of organic tissue as it is a fundamental aspect of what makes it organic.

And what I am saying for the reasons stated above and in my prior post is that organics being an integral part of units will not have been one of those things. Lessons? Sure. In fact yes, absolutely. But tissue in units? No.

It really does matter. The enemy is not going to wait while you find novel ways to utilise all resources you encounter. They are going to hit you with the most effective technology that exists. We have already established that you aren’t going to run out of inorganic materials so the logical thing to do is to push for the most destructive, most resilient, most environmentally versatile units possible. Organic tissue requirements would preclude their usefulness under these tenets.

I don't think so. Biology is improving upon itself all the time through evolution for starters so to say that those systems cannot be improved upon is incorrect.

Why would a machine army have any use for a biological immune system? they cant catch organic diseases. The same goes for digestive systems, It has been said that fusion power is going to exist in this game. Given that hydrogen is the most common material in the universe it isn't like the machines are going to be hard up for energy and how are you going to work eating requirements into game play? that sounds more than a little obscure and flawed.

As I mentioned above, because we learned from biology (muscle fibres, and brains) doesn't mean you have to put them into a machine chassis and that they cannot be improved upon. Artificial replacements for these things (neural network computing and artificial carbon muscles) which can be designed to be more relevant to the task at hand, rather than changing design to suit the material and environmental requirements of biology which is a liability in war.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Just read all of this cra-SORRY argument and i'm still not sure where anyone's going with this. This can't be an argument about gameplay, because from a gameplay perspective, building a squishy humanoid is just the same as building a cheaper, less armored robot, so let's look at the lore side of things instead.

Since we have all covered in great length that Awesome > realism, we should accept that we could have flash-cloned(?) organisms running around the battlefield in full combat gear if we wanted. We could even make cats with cloaking generators or t-rexs that can breathe fire, if it was cool.

So, the argument here is really whether or not having only robots is cooler aesthetically than having cheap organic cannon fodder thrown into the mix too. And since TA and SC (not 2) were exclusively robot-based, I can't see any reason why they should break that artistic mold



EDIT: However, the sugary desert-based armada seems to me to be an essential inclusion to the game

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Based on the OP the general thrust of the thread is discussing whether we think partly organic units would have a place in the game. It isn't focusing on specifically game play or aesthetics and so people are debating from both of those perspectives. It is somewhat unfocused.

I dont think using Awesome > realism as a catch all argument really works. Throwing something into the game because of a subjective view of what awesomeness constitutes is not going to end well. I am all for awesome but it has to follow with the aesthetic Uber have chosen. This includes visual appearance you are right, but it also includes balancing things in gameplay and maintaining the suspension of disbelief within the confines of the world Uber are creating. It is a bit more complicated than "awesome always trumps realism" as they are not mutually exclusive concepts and can greatly impact on each other.

Whilst appealing to tradition isn't normally reason enough to go with something, I do agree with your sentiment. Semi-Biological units in SupCom2 were out of place given its setting and I think that it would be the same if they were included in PA.

It's got my vote!

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

I'd like to say that the idea of other inorganic but non metal cheaper units are also appealing as a concept.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

I really don't get this debate at all. It just looks like people are getting involved to flame one another.

I've not extensively read any of the lore around SupCom, but feel I can say with a degree of integrity there was nothing to suggest that the mass we were gathering in SupCom was specifically metal, nor the energy electricity. There was no suggestion what the robots were made out of or indeed if they were autonomous or piloted. This differs greatly from TA where one resource was specifically called 'metal' and the factions were either clones (ARM) or digitally embedded consciousness (CORE). See below:

"A war lasting four thousand years followed, with the Arm mass-producing clones as pilots for its vehicles and the Core duplicating consciousness-embedded microchips to pilot its own machines." TA Universe.

As far as I am concerned it is pretty irrelevant what the killer automatons are made of in PA. I really doubt they would be organic at any rate. Both TA and SupCom had organics and in both of those games the organics just piloted machines. See ARM and Cybran.

That's about as far into this as I'm willing to get. Save for that I really don't want another unit like the Cybranasaurus Rex.

EDITED: Spelling mistake.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

In SupCom lore only ACUs and SCUs were piloted, everything else was a robot.

Mike

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Thanks

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

That is really what it boils down to for me. Perhaps I have become too involved in the specifics where biology is concerned (Hazard of working in biological sciences I guess), I just dont want a repeat of units that are out of whack with the aesthetic.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

I'd rather uber didn't waste their time on a unit which requires more polys to look good and takes longer to model and animate.

Also robots > all.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Actually I got into playing TA because my parents thought SC had too much gore and wouldn't let me play it. So I am in favor of robots and explosions.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Hello all, thought i'd jump in the deep end and make this thread where my first post goes...

Having literally spent more than I should of my work day reading through this thread. Christ some of you need to pull that damn stick out. Especially Jurgen A.k.A I'm always right, Your wrong, why don't you go die in fire?

I fully agree that in TA, Supcom, Supcom 2 most units are Robotic, yes the T-Rex in Supcom 2 was out of place.

Anyway as much as I like Organic races in games, I don't think bootstrapping Organic units onto a Robotic army would be very wise.

Now if in the future they actually wanted to expand the lore and add an Organic race, why the hell not and before the Mechaphiles shout down the idea "Becus Robotz ownzorz all!!11!" they could be from a distant galaxy, untouched by the *Whatever this will be called* war and they hate AI... But still have advanced enough technology (Mechanical or Biological), breeding patterns, whatever to fight on even terms with the bog standard walking metal wall of death faction.

TL;DR I agree that Organics could have a place in the game, just not bootstrapped onto a primarily robotic army. So basicall expansion material really.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

If they decided to have another faction at some point in the future as an expansion then that is a different story altogether, what you are describing is a wholly organic faction which wasn't what the OP was suggesting.

I dont think I'd have an issue with an all organic faction, I think that could be made to work and could have a unified aesthetic, though I guess that is a whole other discussion. My disagreement was with having units like the Cybranasaurus Rex in the single unit-pool/faction that is planned for release. Things that are aesthetically (and in my opinion logically) out of place.

[edit]: I should also say welcome to the forums! it is good to see new people who take the time to read before posting, there have been quite a few instances lately when new people haven't checked and made a redundant thread instead of adding to existing discussion.

If I could extend one piece of advice it would be to avoid insults, warranted or not, as it tends to be one of the things that drags a thread off track the fastest.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Yea was just adding my thoughts on Organics in the future game. I know PA isn't a direct sequel to TA or Supcom more like a spiritual one but still I doubt we will ever see organics fighting Robots. Some (Not you) just seem to have taken to the fact that Metal = Win. Things like the Tyranids in WH40k who use fast evolution and large numbers or their Blizzard copies the Zerg or you could go for a Clone army like that in Star Wars (except maybe have better Marksmenship classes) backed up by Biological technology, could stand toe to toe with a Mechanical Army.

For example of what i'm thinking Basic troop armour could be like

http://www.strategycore.co.uk/databank/games/ufo-aftermath/enemies/reticulans/

and Vehicles could take a leaf out of (I know only orbital will be available on release so i'm not asking for Space Combat just the "Look" of the Ships translated onto ground, air and orbital vehicles)

http://www.giantbomb.com/endless-space/61-38217/all-images/52-605478/mebai/51-2229235/

You could even make this the race that made the Robots in the first place, Returned to stop their creations merciless destruction once and for all (really corny but wth).

I agree fully with you about tacking on Organic units, Seems really out of place.

Thanks

Yea I really liked what I saw back in August of PA ended up backing in September, I've read a bit on the forums and always get childishly giddy when I get an E-mail from the PA team. Having read through this thread, I thought I was ready to add my worthless opinion

It wasn't meant as an insult more like "Really people, chill out" I understand some people like robots and there are plenty of instances where Robots > Organics. But a society of highly advanced organics with amazing Biotechnology could right on even terms with a Mechanical army.

"The Bots are using Lasers now"

"Its ok using our Space Ma... I mean advanced Technology we can make our biological armour resistant to lasers"

"Yay, we aren't burning to death quite as easy now!"

I apologise if anything I said was thought to be a direct insult, i'm just really sarcastic and get carried away sometimes

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

I agree I don't think that it is the kind of thing Uber are going to be aiming for, and a wholly organic race might be derided as a carbon copy of the Tyranids in the same way that the Zerg are in SC.

That is some cool concept art.

Sounds similar to the Seraphim's reappearance in Forged Alliance. PA seems very light on lore and I think it is quite deliberate, the exposition depicted in the game-play visualisation is really all that is needed to have war robots destroying each other for the sake of destruction. It is actually quite refreshing to not have a badly written story shoehorned into an RTS as an afterthought just to have a single-player campaign (I'm looking at you SupCom2), I've mostly been disappointed in the storylines written for RTS's, The over the top narration providing the exposition with brassy music over the top of the stylised aesthetic does an awesome job. Hmmm perhaps Im drifting off topic with that, what you said could work but I think you were right earlier when you said that it isn't likely to happen.

Definitely get in and discussing if you are up for it, some of the stuff this forum churns out is really interesting and having the devs jump into the forums so frequently really adds to it.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

Well, I was going to let this slide, but it seems cptbritish is asking after me by name. Of course, given his signature he seems to have explicitly stated he has no interest in being right, so I don't expect much from this.

I'm surprised it took this long for these three factions to show up, given that they're the things largely responsible for the organic technology brainbug infecting ill-informed space opera fans. You know what those three have in common? They're all from settings which make about as much sense as Monty Python's Flying Circus. The Tyranids explicitly run on magic and are from a setting which has so little internal consistency the creators even explicitly state that a significant proportion of their published material is lies, propaganda or misinformation. The Zerg also explicitly run on magic, and while the Clones don't, Star Wars is a place which simultaneously wants to have interstellar spaceships capable of blowing up continents and infantry combat straight out of the Napoleonic era and somehow have both relevant at the same time. Which is also 40k's standard MO. There are Space Mongols who destroy tanks with explosive lances from the backs of their horses and somehow these are capable of operating in the same forces as forty metre tall death robots armed with tactical nuclear weapons and energy shields.

So, while you using 40k and Star Wars as examples of where organics don't suck is actually resorting to just saying "a Space Wizard did it", which can literally be used to justify anything, the more damning thing about you using these examples is that it implies you think that 40k and Star Wars both have ground combat which is in any way relevant to the type of combat
seen in Supreme Commander or Total Annihilation. Total Annihilation's war torn future makes 40k's Grim Darkness look like a playground full of rainbows and lollipop trees. In 40k, the standard basic ground combatant is a dude with a flashlight and a flak vest. In Starcraft, the standard ground combatant is a redneck in open-faced armour with a rifle. In Star Wars the standard ground combatant is a flimsy robot shorter than an average human armed with a pew pew laser that's basically equivalent to a rifle, or a dude in armour that's surprisingly vulnerable to primitive bows being used by midget teddy bears armed with the same rifle. In Total Annihilation the standard ground combatant is an eight meter tall robot with antimatter guns for arms and a cloaking device. If anything, PA will be more powerful than TA, since in TA, blowing up planets was a big deal, but in PA it's not even going to be uncommon. Even if 40k were a serious attempt at an internally consistent setting about future combat, rather than a madcap place full of fantasy tropes with the word "Space" prepended to them (where the Tyrannids' main reason for their success is that it takes 18 years to replace a dead guardsman, which doesn't look so hot when it doesn't even take 18 seconds to replace a dead Peewee), it still isn't any more relevant to the type of place a TA-like game is than the Norman invasion of Britain.

Furthermore, you seem to think that the reason why organics suck is that "metal = win", when really, it's "nuclear weapons = win". "Fast evolution and numbers" doesn't look so hot when you don't have nukes and your opponent does.

TL;DR: Keep your Space Fantasy out of this game.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

You took this way too far and slaughtered it.

The point really was one of lore rather then gameplay so why your making such a big deal out of this is beyond me.

Re: They Don't All Have To Be Robots, Lifeforms Can Be Creat

There is a complete and utter difference in being right and having perfect grammar. I'll gladly argue my point and as long as my grammar and text is readable I don't care that someone may have taken personal offence to me leaving out the odd apostrophe.

I'm surprised too, the Tyranids are by no margin my favourite WH40k race but still I find them interesting.

WH40k: Yea there is basically a Hell dimension which in turn gives things "powers". I wouldn't say that completely and utterly makes all of it a non issue in this discussion. I wasn't referring to the Tyranids Hive Mind operating over billions of light years due to "Magic", I was referring to the adaptation. You fire bullets, they evolve to have hard carapaces. You fire lasers they evolve reflective carapaces. You can't call their evolutionary ability any more magic, than I could call the Core's "Lets turn people into computers" technology magic

Starcraft: Whats "magic" about the Zerg? because last I checked like the race they were ripped off from they are just highly adaptive, killing machines, controlled via a hive mind (and then by a Revenge filled Part Cockroach part Woman).

Star Wars: Yes because Star Wars is a film and if you watch very closely about 80% of the fighting is done in close quarters except on Hoth. So what you perceive as "Napoleonic Era" fighting (Which was actually lines of men fighting at each other, not the Fire and move that the Stormtroopers fail so bad at) is actually just the hectic nature of CQC

Also speaking of Hoth If you ignore the Rebels plot armour then the Rebels are fighting against Giant Mechs and they win due to Small fast vehicles. Which is not inconceivable, You know like to an 8 meter tall robot firing auto cannons trying to hit lots of targets at once?

Don't bring in the eccentricities of Space Marines, theres absolutely no point. The Tyranids - which if you remember I only mentioned for reference value of Purely Organics winning - Don't use sub standard weapons as a point of pride or nostalgic value. They use their weapons because they are effective at a role. Personally I thought the White Scars only used Horses for ceremonial duties and not for Grand Crusades/Major Campaigns (Which would justify the 40 Metre tall Titans)...

"Space Wizard did it" can only be used for things like Psi powers and the Warp. If you class the bog standard combat as "Magic" when its mostly just projectile or energy weaponary. Then TA/Supcom have just as much "Magic" in them. Also what about the Arm forces using "Genetic Memory" seems about as close to "Space Magic" as Psi powers except less overt.

I'd say 40k's Ground combat is exactly like Total Annihilation except with man and machine and not just machine.

TA/Supcom: Throw hundreds of Machines at the problem until it goes away.

WH40k: Throw Thousands of Men at the problem until it goes away.

Can't tell if serious...

A war lasting 4000 years in which lots of Robots and Clones die.

A constant battle of survival in a galaxy that doesn't give a sh*t the closest you get to the good guys, want to convert you to follow some smarter versions of themselves because they want you to be like them, if not you die.

The worse will flay you alive, keep you in a permanent state pain for however long their f**ked up gods desire. Then after they show mercy and maybe just kill you in the most painful way possible, they might if they are feeling in the mood boil your soul for the rest of eternity.

Oh and then if you want to stay loyal to your own people. Even knowing someone in passing 20 years ago can get you accused of treason, have your mind burnt out by someone with "Space Magic" until they realise you didn't actually commit treason by this time it doesn't really matter your a husk and just another number in the Imperiums war against Chaos.

Say what you want about 40k's published material contradicting itself at every turn. Don't compare the two worlds and lore because quite frankly anyone who has read into 40k lore can tell you TA/Supcoms lore is a paradise compared to 40ks.

Depending on what race you look at, "the standard" troop can be anything from a half-psycho killing machine who wills his gun to work or a millenia old robot whos bog standard rifle can kill tanks.

I'll give you the one about Star Wars but then lore wise the Stormtroopers were supposed to be crack shots...

The reason for the Tyranids success is their adaptability. They see something they struggle to kill so they adapt a unit that can kill it, More virulent poison, sharper claws, stronger legs, natural cloaking whatever is needed to kill the said foe.

Also been able to bring 1000 to 1 the numbers helps as well as the fact that any planet they conquer it gets stripped of all biomatter to make more Tyranids.

Really? i've played TA & Supcom quite a bit and didn't quite realise all the units fired Nuclear weapons... Personally from my experience most of the units fired standard projectiles, lasers or missiles and nuclear weapons were the end game weapons...

Yea i've had a few lan games that just turned into "who can build the most nukes".

I'm not asking for Space Fantasy, I'm putting forward a point that evolution could advance as far as technology, I'm not saying it will, but arguing that it wouldn't be impossible for evolution in the right environment to compare to the mechanical technology of TA/Supcom/PA.

Plus:

"Hey look they can transplant peoples consciousness into robots and develop genetic memory, but a Lifeform that can evolve into something resembling a tank? No thats too far to stretch".