The Politics Thread (PLAY NICELY!)

I personally would prefer to return to pre-1965 immigration law, it was a compromise between those who wanted little or no immigration, and those who wanted open immigration. It alloted immigration quotas based on the demographics of the country, so that no amount of immigration would change the demographics significantly.

Why shouldn't a country change? I mean that's technically how America was founded. Saying "I want the ability to reject immigrants" is good and well, but it doesn't actually help the reality here.

Steal the money from the rich people who... At the moment Illegally avoid taxes through various loopholes and etc. While the working class must pay up like a good citizen and live paycheck to paycheck.

I'd rather not the US become an oligarchy. =(

There are a lot of ways to do that legally, not just illegally.

Rich people should most definitely pay taxes. Loopholes suck, and they should be addressed.

Except the people we want to deport are avoiding the law altogether, so we can't exactly force them to come over the border in certain demographical ratios.

I want immigrants to immigrate legally. That's pretty much all I care about when it comes to immigration. The rest is better left to Economics and foreign policy.

Actually, most of it is legal. There are exceptions, ofc, but companies like Google and Apple have exported so much of their money and assets overseas that it is kinda rodiculous how little they pay in taxes. All legal, tho. The avoidance part is morally questionable, but I can't blame them trying to escape some of the high corporate taxes we have through perfectly legal means.
And the USA is heading down the path to oligarchy if we keep giving the politicians more pull with the private sector.

Also, living paycheck to paycheck is a choice. Not budgeting properly/ having unreasonably high debt, not investing in the market, etc ., will all lead to this outcome. Most people never get that and stay in the rat race their entire lives. There are exceptions, ofc, but by and large it is a choice.

While you're right that choices usually lead to that, I don't think that any string of nonviolent decisions should ever get you stuck in a poverty level financial rut for life. Debt can do that to people scarily easily. And I don't even think it should even extend over 5-10 years.

It's not just the fault of the person who owes the money. The person owed shouldn't lend money or services to people who can't pay and shouldn't incur fees that intentionally keep it that way.

I never said there wasnt. Even the average person can avoid taxes legally- by buying electric cars or using solar panels and etc.

Being born in a shitty neighborhood isn't exactly a choice. And even in the realm of bad economic decisions- Maybe If we actually had an education system which taught people to survive as an adult we'd see some improvement.

To assume every poor person is a lazy slob is the same as assuming every company is an evil hive mind controlling our government. While there can be powerful examples to show some truth to it, generalizations don't really work.

HA HA HA I JUST READ LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK WAS A CHOICE.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA H- [error overflow at line 23 character 7527]

Assuming that the majority of poor people aren't in some way to blame for their own situation is shortsighted. There are exceptions where people are driven to poverty via - you know what, **** it.

I have yet to hear of a single situation that doesn't involve drugs or illicit dealings or criminal activity where a poor family or person was powerless to stop their decline. It's a choice. They make bad spending decisions, they don't take responsibility for their failures, they don't listen to the wisdom of an elder. Etc Etc. It isn't because *I can't find a job*. It's because these people with zero direct physical or mental problems choose not to educate themselves about how to survive and thrive in today's market. They didn't develop a new skill, they just continue in the same dead end job for years. They had a good job, but made terrible spending choices (bought a sports car off the lot @ 50k a year USD), and it tanked their finances. They got laid off, but didn't go the extra mile to find a job in any area to get back on their feet.

I grew up next to a family who had their house foreclosed on the year after I left for college because they overextended and started two ice cream shops instead of just one. Their choice. Their decision. We all understood that. My other neighbor was a small business owner who did the opposite - he played the long game over 30 years, slowly buying real estate until he had enough income to quit his job and live off that land. Not the path I would have chosen personally, but he played it slow and cautious. He's quite wealthy at this point, but lives well below his means.

Friends I knew from the *ghetto* or the *hood* had parental issues, generally. One parent was either absent or left, and the other turned to drugs or just general laziness and alcohol to numb the pain. Regardless, they ignored the kid(s), and it never turned out well. Only the parents who cared about their kids ended up in decent homes to put their kids through college.

I know plenty of guys from poor backgrounds who made the choice to GTFO and get a decent living. And those that were capable did so.

"your anecdotal evidence sucks, here's why my anecdotal evidence totally allows me to generalise across a nation slash world of employed workers"

People are not responsible for the flaws of their parents.

People are not responsible for mental health issues inflicted on them by other people, the state at large, or previous work experiences (read as: other people).

People are not responsible for being forced into a low-earning job because it's mandatory in this day and age to have a job to survive.

People are not responsible for being forced to live in the (expensive) immediate vicinity of their job.

People are not responsible for being forced to live in an affordable area miles away from their job that they then have to handle a commute for (increasing stress, decreasing on-time arrival reliability and obviously costs / expenditure).

None of these are choices. Opening two stores instead of one store? Possibly a choice, but that's such a hand-picked example it might as well be irrelevant.

You knowing "plenty of guys" is a) telling that you only mentioned "guys" unless that's shorthand for "every person race gender and denomination under the sun" (which is fair, but also indicative of your inherent privilege and station) and b) statistically irrelevant.

EDIT:

Let's do personal anecdotal story time!

I'm from the UK! I am a cis straight male in a longterm relationship, sharing a rental together and in a stable job that pays the UK average (or thereabouts). I am the definition of a privileged group. I am the statistical perfect average for what passes as "normal", and that is my privilege.

If I wasn't paid for one month, I would either have to max out my available credit or be homeless (and even then I have family to fallback on - hence, privilege. Not everyone has that). I don't know how strict people take the definition of "paycheck to paycheck" but for us it's pretty accurate. My better half has taken up a part time job so we can start saving for actual necessities like a replacement car because our current one is falling apart (secondhand, old, nothing we can do about it) and I actually need to learn to drive (because I can't rely on my partner given the eventuality of having another child and her being unable to drive for a time again). Any spare money I have goes into paying for water polo (my main source of both stress relief and exercise), gym memberships (main exercise for her, and supplemental for me), Internet connection (mandatory for indie games development and also for working from home) and the usual stuff like bills and food. Our food budget is minimal. We both home cook, we both buy reduced price goods. We manage our gas and electricity usage, we don't use the heating when we don't have to and we turn everything off when we don't use it.

On my wage alone, we are just about staying above board. We do not have the savings to get married. We do not have the savings for a house deposit (as mortgages are predictably less than rental, and we don't want to settle down where we are currently. That is a choice we have actively made).

So kindly please just abdicate this thread if you're going to continually explain that just because you know a few people who've made bad decisions, that therefore nearly everyone who is poor has a reason for being poor.

Some of us are simply just getting by. A lot of people are far worse off than me and my partner, and I am just getting by.

I agree with much of what you said, but isn't this a bit petty? With this are you implying you've never used "guys" as a blanket term before? And that it's not a hugely common way of use? It's the equivalent of targeting people speaking Spanish or Portegease for using "Ellos" as apposed to "Ustedes" to refer to a group of people of mixed gender.

*Basically it's built into the language.

Language is always evolving, and I simply try to keep up with it. You can call it petty if you want. To me it's often an indicator of someone's social views on pronouns and how they tend to treat minority demographics. Not always, but often. Hence "it's pretty telling" not "you are an awful person that hates minorities".

I have used "guys" as a blanket statement. These days, I try not to. There are more appropriate words in-context given how redundant the English language is with it's bajillion synonyms for any particular noun phrase. "people" is an easy one. "folk" is an easy one that also doubles as colloquial / slang. And so on, and so forth.

I am very tired of people defending things just because "that's the way they are". That isn't a reason not to change going fowards, otherwise nobody and nothing would ever change. Just as I'm tired of the "I bet you've done that at least once in your life so you can't criticise it" angle, too.

Don't you think your post is petty by the same logic? This is nothing personal to you, not at all, it's partly that I've had a long day and I struggle not to make long wordy stuffy posts But it's odd that you complain about my complaint, you see?

This is just a personal taste- But people often sounds to formal given context and... I just don't like the word folk.

My main complaint is it feels rather patronizing to have every word you use scrutinized when it's basically become slang for your particular area. Guys being a rather common way to refer to a varied group of human beings.

As you said language is ever evolving, maybe there was a point guys didn't exist and maybe a point where guys wasn't a blanket term? Maybe it's just.. become one? Obviously saying this without anything to back it up, just playing Devil's advocate.

Due to your choices. Not because someone forced you to. Noone can force you to do anything. You do your own thing no matter the circumstances. I've watched friends of mine make the choice to be financially responsible /independent. They stood up one day and said, **** this. I'm gonna be rich. They are well on their way to that outcome. One guy I know started with the money he made from highschool and made a successful kite making business out of it.

Boo hoo. You're barely hanging in there. Welcome to the club of the young and poor. Are you going to be proactive about it and change your future or will you sit at the bar bemoaning your existence to your friends?

Money is the easiest thing to obtain. Making more is a choice. It's not predetermined. It isn't forced upon you.

The only mental issues that count involve traumatic experiences and genetic disorders. They are completely irrelevant to this discussion. If I missed a category, sorry. I'm not a mental health specialist.

I wish the world were the candy store you seem to think it is.
I'll go decide to be rich. See ya tomorrow when I fund a PA2.

I'll join you mate! I can finally make a Halo spiritual successor on PC!

Never said it was instantaneous. It's a choice you make every day. The choice to strive for a better future for yourself and yours.

If you want to do that, you can. Just make the choice to take the hard road with little free time and lots of work and you'll be fine.

I do 3d work. But there's nowhere to start in terms of engine outside unity and unreal. I'd like to use Source but it's not feasible financially as valve I'd pretty strict on selling source games.

No, due to the situation that is forced upon me, I am forced to live by the constraints I live by. I do not choose my taxes. I do not choose the fact that student loans are an integral part of further education. I do not choose my insurance bracket given to me both by my gender and my age (the quality of car factors into this, but we're aware of that one. We deliberately go for secondhand reliable cars for a reason).

I bemoan nothing. I shared a part of my life story to counteract your insistence that just because you know some people who made poor decisions, everyone must make the same decisions. Life doesn't work that way, and money isn't always easy to obtain.

As I attempted to show. I am as good as I can be with my money. Still just about breaking even.

But your comment about mental health shows how you truly, simply, understand nothing at stake here. Let me demonstrate, in simple terms.

"the only mental issues that count involve"

"if I missed a category, sorry, I'm not a specialist"

These statements directly contradict each other. You use the reality of not being a mental health specialist to defend against criticism but you ignore the reality of you not being a mental health specialist when you issue an absolute statement about mental health.

Much like your "financial advice". You do not know how this world works. Neither do I! But I admit that. You should too; people take you more seriously if you're willing to admit faults.