The Politics Thread (PLAY NICELY!)

Discussion in 'Unrelated Discussion' started by stuart98, November 11, 2015.

  1. websterx01

    websterx01 Post Master General

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    However, opinions can be, and often are, wrong. Just because I think that this is the mildest winter ever, doesn't mean I'm right. It's my opinion that it is, but that opinion is wrong.

    For reference, 48 Americans were killed by terrorist attacks since 9/11. Over 200 (around 215, depending on how you measure it) were killed in mass shootings from 2003-2012. The FBI changed how it registers mass shootings, so the statistics are a bit skewed in weird ways, often omitting events. By this, I'm 4 times as likely to be killed by an American than a terrorist, and that is including all acts of terror, not just by ISIS or Al Qaeda. I am honestly more afraid of being killed by the dark, quiet kid in English, than I am about the Middle Easter students blowing me up in Math or Engineering.

    The focus shouldn't be on preventing attacks that hardly happen, and when they do happen, hardly happen effectively, when there are much higher probability dangers.

    The irony kills me. (And quite possibly, literally.)
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
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  2. Killerkiwijuice

    Killerkiwijuice Post Master General

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    Why would any advanced species sit back and watch a part of itself commit mass genocide? Without intervention millions of people would fall to the hands of Jihad.

    And btw, there's no way we can contain the threat. It must be addressed at the origin and strategically neutralized with infantry. Totally a war worth fighting if the alternative is sitting back and hoping nothing else bad will happen.

    Does anyone truly think the attacks will just stop?

    PS. I can't even. Things that seem perfectly logical to some seem completely ilogical to others. It's so weird. It's like saying basic math operations are false in their entirety.
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  3. stuart98

    stuart98 Post Master General

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    I agree with this sentiment, but we have to be smart about it. We absolutely cannot allow another Iraq war, a conflict where we only exacerbate the issue. Terrorism grows when the general population feels that their cause is just. Until we bombed and invaded Iraq, there was no al Qaida in Iraq. If the people of Syria feel like we are against them, then ISIS only grows. There are few absolute rights or absolute wrongs in foreign policy, or indeed in any area of policy, and those that do usually end up with people in body bags. The people in Syria are being massacred. Awful. Now how do we stop it? How do we stop it while not angering Russia? How do we stop it without strengthening the oppressive regime that Russia supports? How do we stop it without killing civilians? How do we stop it without strengthening the very entity we're aiming to destroy? How do we stop it without disappointing Ben Carson by dispelling his misconception that China's involved? If there's a correct answer, inquiring minds would like to know.

    Internet points if you can say what TV Show I basically lifted the part about an absolute right or absolute wrong from, and bonus if you can name the episode and/or post the YouTube clip of the scene.
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  4. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    The USA walked into Iraq and Afghanistan over ten years ago. In those years, we obliterated the organization and power structure of both AQ and the Taliban. They are STILL reeling from that invasion. However, the Daesh is the product of our government going through an election cycle with an anit-war sentiment. Suddenly, we had few people in the Middle East, and the radicals came back to fill the power vacuum. We gave the tools necessary for the Iraqi people to fight back to their government. Still didn't help much. Now we've got these raving lunatics with billions of dollars in Iranian money behind them and a network just as broad as pre-9/11 Al-Qaeda.

    And our PLAN is to send more of our troops in to die while ignoring the core of the problem.

    Or (even worse), just ignore the problem altogether. *the Daesh are just gonna go away after a while* isn't going to keep hundreds being killed every day by these bastards.

    However, jumping into a military engagement against an enemy we cannot target directly (conventional, state v state warfare) is both unwise and shortsighted. What happens when the international coalition decides to call it off for a few years after a decade of constant war?

    Unless we fundamentally change the way we deal with terrorist organizations, our children will be fighting this same fight against their children for generations. And THAT is what they want. They believe in that war without hesitation. It's like Armageddon for them. God walks on earth and rules with favor to his followers and all that. That's not precise, but it's the gist of it.

    As to defending ourselves from incursion, I have zero tolerance for groups of civilians coming from those battlegrounds into my country because I remember reading about the horrors of Vietnam and watching short videos of children with bomb vests in Afghanistan and Iraq. That stuff was chilling. The Israelis know how to deal with this stuff for the most part, and for some reason we've yet to learn. Until we do, I think we should send those refugees to any number of prosperous countries capable of holding them.

    It's not a matter of decency. That went out the window when some self-righteous ***** decided a plane full of jet fuel was his ticket to glory by riding it into a 110 story tower of steel and glass.

    War is ugly. Guerrilla warfare is desperation fueled by an intense hatred or a hope for survival.

    Neither is preferable - and we need to end the thousand year cycle that started with the Crusades.
  5. arseface

    arseface Post Master General

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    That won't stop the terrorists from coming in if they want to. Just the legitimate refugees.
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  6. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    which is exactly what is happening right now and why the french people are starting to get way pissed at these inefficient and largely collateral bomb raids Hollande has been ordering.
  7. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    HAH! you mean that time we shot ourselves in the foot?

    nah that's a story they tell themselves for a good laugh.
    I dunno who keeps spreading this fud about the Crusades like it's some big hit we had on them or something.

    by the death toll the crusades were largely an oriental victory.
    OMG dude.

    this is like hearing a terrorist talk. you're almost as brainwashed as they are.

    Trust me. Out of you and a Daesh man, you're the only one to care about the fukin crusades
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
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  8. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    The whole issue with Syria is a largely complex one.

    This is why immediate assessment of the action to take and "neutralization" isn't possible. You could drop a bunch of atomic bombs (if europe had nothing to say about the nuclear winds) there and wonder why the the problem is only exacerbating itself.

    but History has all the answers you're looking for.

    the West caused this. Originally thinking leaving the place without any good organisation would be enough and the place could hopefully resume a democracy by itself.

    but abandoning them without setting an institution back up left all those people with no choice but to let whoever take power on whatever terms they wanted.

    and so the powerful took up a dictatorship in exchange for the basic constructs of civilization (and I'm talking a little more basic than running water).

    of course this was much worse than before.

    As Putin recently well analysed. You can throw any number of bombs over there and it won't do **** until the money stops flowing massively in to Daesh.

    "who would pay these terrorists ?!!" well everyone. most of the rich countries the U.S included.

    under the cover of anonymity via middle mans companies from all around the word purchase their oil.

    and so now it's become obvious that plain out war is a waste of time. First Daesh must be utterly and totally boycotted commercially once and for all. both for sales of weapons and for purchase of petrol.

    Second. THEN the infantry or whatever can root them out.

    And lastly (and this is the crucial step that was forgotten last time) the job isn't over until a fulfilling and democratic state infrastructure is in place.
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
  9. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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  10. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    I think it's time that America realized that the world of today was (for a considerable part) caused by their thoughtless wars and actions.

    I'm not saying we should send IS hugs, but you can't just bomb a country and expect the problem will solve itself. As long as the nurture grounds for IS, Al-Quaida and such continue to exist then we could nuke the place and it'll still be pointless.

    EDIT:

    Mered, it's not that strange that middle-eastern countries don't like america. America gave them plenty of reason to hate them.

    Secondly, throwing out the baby with the bathwater is also not going to help. Yes these countries have problems with deep-routed extremism. But compare the amount of extremists to the total population of muslims and they're a drop in the ocean. All these problems are being caused by a (relatively) small group of people. No need to punish the other 99% for them.

    Thirdly, you're telling me that even with NSA mass surveillance, extreme airport check and all, you still don't think you could pick out the terrorists? Then what's the point in doing it all?

    Lastly, you're only deluding yourself if you think they hold a grudge over the crusades. They hold a grudge over indiscriminate UAV bombing. They hold a grudge over America invading, breaking down their country and leaving without fixing anything. They hold a grudge over the past 20-40 years of american foreign policy (AKA "Shoot first"). I've seen interviews with people on the forefront. Turns out the Iraqi people feared the americans the most because they had a shoot-first policy, whereas every other nation would at least ask questions.

    America's been so long at the top of military dominance that they have no concept of doing anything other than bombing and threatening. You don't fix other places with bombs.
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
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  11. arseface

    arseface Post Master General

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    While the US certainly had a part in creating the best that is the modern day middle east, it started primarily with the initial designation of the middle eastern recognized nations after WW1. And that was primarily handled by European powers. The US and Russia have been exacerbating the issue since the Cold War, but the ground work wasn't laid by us.

    Money mostly. The NSA put forward the most expensive system it thought it could get away with funding to set a better standard for future grants. Not the most effective. Previous NSA employees have gone on the record admitting to this.

    EDIT: It's a lot easier to evaluate more concentrated data than it is to evaluate the shitloadfucktons that the NSA collects.

    A hyperbole if ever I've seen one. The idea only thing the US uses is its military in international relations is as absurd as the idea that that a country unable to stop uneducated, unorganized, impoverished people from crossing its lower border would be able to prevent an extensively planned, organized, well funded attack from happening anywhere.


    I'm not saying the US is faultless, but pointing the finger at the US and saying "This is your fault, your country is stupid" is as biased and misguided as you're claiming we are. It's a complicated problem with complicated causes that requires a complicated solution.
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  12. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Thoughtless wars, @Devak ?
    Because they were quite successful. We did what we came to do but we didn't have a solid endgame for stopping a resurgence.

    And tatsu:
    No, they usually don't talk about the crusades directly. Mostly because the crusades were simply the beginning. The west has had troops in the middle East quite frequently since the first crusade, which helps reinforce their view of us as the oppressers of their lives. It's just a millennium of consistent invasion that started with the mindless slaughter of the crusades. Ending that cycle will take generations, but if we want the middle East to become anything close to the free west, we need to start ASAP. They need to have no one to blame but themselves for their problems.

    Also, the USA isn't paying the Daesh. That's a load of hyperbolic horse crap.
  13. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Successful is quite a broad term. They accomplished their respective goals. We won, essentially. The unintended consequences of our decisions at the end of those wars is what is hurting us now.
  14. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    I admit it is somewhat hyperbolic, and it was somewhat intended.

    Regarding Iraq, sure. But it's clear there was no plan for the Invasion beyond, well, invasion. The little effort done to give post-invasion care pretty much immediately bit everyone in the ***. I recall various reports of people trained by the allies immediately defecting to IIRC what is now IS. Had there been an actual post-invasion plan, most of the problems of today would've been significantly reduced.

    I also understand that mistakes can and will be made. But right now Syria is becoming the next Iraq. Different scenario, but the same stuff is once more happening: A volatile battleground ripe to reap of weapons and willing soldiers. Once more Allies are bombing the place and once more it won't work.

    I know the NSA was done for money. My point is, if a politician claims it's not safe, and apparently inside sources support the claim, isn't that the same as straight-up admitting that all this mass-surveillance and all these safety measures are complete bogus?
    The only point in the invasion was to safeguard oil supplies. Not only is that, a decade later, a completely obsolete goal, but it also severely deteriorated the world stability rather than improve it. I'd say that right now the exact opposite of what was intended occurred.
    literally a line or two before that you say the West invaded them. But now you say they themselves are responsible?

    There's absolutely no way american intelligence looked at the situation and thought "well we have a suppressed majority. That'll totally go fine if we kill the dictator"
    EDIT:

    To clarify my own point of view, nothings gonna change with bombs. If we want to improve the situation, step one is to get people around the table. The Kurds seem both willing and able to stop IS if given the appropriate tools. Russia is blocking Assad's downfall, so maybe that's the price we have to pay for the downfall of IS. because i simply dont believe Russia will only bomb IS.
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
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  15. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Hey that's a sentence I can agree on. Starting any form of military attacks against terrorists is likely to fail because it's indeed not an enemy that can be fought in the typical army vs army way. America made those mistakes in Iraq and in Afghanistan twice already.
    Then there is also the fact that afaik no connection to Afghanistan has ever been profen in terms of 9/11. America seriously pretty much destroyed that country, causing way more than 3000 death as a reaction to terror attacks that originated else where. Fail. Perfect ground for anti US terrorism to grow.

    lol. The situation around Israel is as fucked up as ever, an endless cycle of hatred from both sides and sure to explode many more times. Perfect example of how to forever keep up the hate. In that kind of situation nothing will ever change until one side decides to put down their hatred. That requires much more strength and greatness than dropping any number of bombs. Neither Israel nor the US seem to be capable of such strength.
  16. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    Yea it's probably the best example of how not to do these kind of things.
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  17. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    really? oh phew!
    [​IMG]

    all that matters
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  18. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Israel's tried to have peace. It's just that every time they finally back off, Hezbollah and other nefarious organizations move in even closer and start lobbing MORE rockets at them. Saying both sides are at fault here is just not true. Sorry. Israel has conceded so much land and treasure to the Arabs surrounding their country, and the bastards keep asking for more, as if that will somehow solve the problem. From what I understand of the situation, Israel doesn't hate the Arab nations on their bad side - they're just wary due to experience with those nations backstabbing them in the night.

    But we didn't. It took us almost two years of planning and intel analysis before we attacked the Taliban in Afghanistan. We understood the cost and the goal of that mission - and for the most part, it was successful. We just couldn't rid the Afghan government of shortsighted cowards who would bow down to the radicals after the first car bomb or bribe. Iraq was the same way - and we utterly destroyed and demoralized Saddam's forces before overthrowing his regime and ultimately capturing the dictator himself.

    We didn't jump into those fights - we took careful steps to ensure victory and neutralize AQ and the Taliban. We reduced those two organizations to almost nothing before pulling out. And now, because we walked away without giving the leaders of those countries the tools to defend themselves effectively, we have the Daesh.

    Was it horrifying and bloody and whatnot? Yeah, it's a guerrilla war - the ugliest of them all. It comes with the territory. We make mistakes because we're making an impossible decision fighting against terrorists who use civilians as tools and shields.
  19. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Your problem is that you're incapable of realizing WHY people might support throwing rockets anywhere.
    The people in gaza are the same type of people you and me are: Human. But something pushed them into insanity.
    Now what would it take for YOU to come to the conclusion that you need to go and kill as many of "them", throwing away your own life?

    I'd recommend you read up on the side of the story that describes the live of the people that Israel is suppressing and stripping of their rights since many years.


    "The cost: Many thousand civilian lives in those countries. Well who cares. It's just about giving up any humanitarian value we ever wanted to stand for...
    The goal: Revenge because of the crimes of a handful of people.
    The result: Oh damn for *some magical reason* there are even more people who hate us now over there."
    How WEIRD

    I recommend you read up on your "success": https://www.iraqbodycount.org/
    That's a lot more than 30 times 9/11 What would you do if more than 30 times 9/11 would happen in the US?

    EDIT:
    Looking at those numbers it should be very easy to understand why there might be some sort of hatred going on towards the US in those regions. Hell I am quite certain if I had not grown up in a stable environment that teaches peace and friendship I am sure I'd be easily available to hate based on those facts as well. I do certainly feel some anger towards the US for this. I just am lucky I have a stable society around me that gives me what is necessary to not fall victim to blind hatred.
    Sadly some people do not have my luck of a stable society around them. For one obviously many people in those affected countries, but also some people here in Europe who just happen to grow up somewhere at the deep bottom of society. Some of those end up with a gun in hand, shooting random people. Simply because nobody ever thought them how to contain darker emotions.
    Last edited: November 19, 2015
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  20. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    Colin, I do understand why people get that way and I can imagine it just fine. I've spoken with a couple of Israeli soldiers who have helped educate me on the motives of their enemies, since they used to deal with them on a daily basis.

    And I have read up on the pathetic sob stories that the Arabs and some media outlets have published on the humans rights "violations" in Israel. Most of them completely ignore the fact that Israel is under attack on a daily basis from a multitude of sources. People attempting to suicide bomb a line of refugees or day workers at an Israeli checkpoint is almost normal - and they are trained to deal with those situations. I know for a fact that I cannot handle that sort of situation, and I thus have zero room to judge the actions of those that can.

    The culture of the Islamic Middle East is a breeding ground for hate. Until that changes, the cycle will continue.

    And if you think the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were REVENGE, Colin, then you need to step back and go read history. AQ and the Taliban basically declared actual and physical war on us that fateful day in 2001. They always talked big about killing the Great Satan, but never had they taken serious action until that day. We went after them and we crushed them under our boot. In the process, however, we opened the can of worms that is now the Daesh and the previous Arab Spring movement. Mistakes were made, sure - but blaming the war on the USA is shortsighted and naive.

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