The PAG debacle

I am not suggesting that you play because I and many other people (see poll) want to watch. I was suggesting that you play if you would enjoy playing. If you don't enjoy playing then of course you should not play. I wouldn't even want you to in that case.

And I am glad to see that your estimation of the gas giant mechanics mirrors so closely my own. Isn't it interesting that a noob like me understands the gas giant so close to someone like Pazoki? But if you consider that the gas giant consists of only 1 layer instead of 4, and a pitifully small number of buildings and units, it's easy to see how I could get a good understanding of it quickly, given that I enjoy to play on it and have it in the systems I am playing on.

My intention is not to take anything away from you or BRN. You played the map for the win in wahtever way and on that level i cannot fault you, nor was i trying to.

The point is very simply this. Jig explosions create an incredible force multiplier.

Just some stats for you
Jig - 3000 metal 500 hp
Avenger - 800 metal 25 dmg

Do you really think you can kill each jig with 4 avengers with other avengers and anchors around? No i didn't think so.

This dropping small amounts of avengers to kill jigs is not a real solution. You require many more than just 4 avengers, and the resources and time taken to kill one is nothing compared to just building a replacement jig.

You really only need 1 avenger per jig, because you are sending them with pinpoint accuracy from another planet, one at a time, right next to an undefended jig (the vast majority of jigs are always undefended, including in your game against BRN).

Maybe 2 avengers per jig, as I said earlier.

But the jig is not even the prize in this case, it is all the collateral damage. Your opponent will be frantically sending his avengers all over the place to intercept you, and many of them will be blown up with the jigs. It's a really much more tactical endeavor now, both attacking and defending a gas giant, than it was before the explosion was added. Before it was just a stupid mass sending of avengers. Now you have to do considerable microing to get anything done, both as defender and attacker.

I'm sure pazoki will go afk for half a minute to make a sandwhich everytime an avenger lands on a jig. He might even drop it in such a way that it hit his keyboard and accidently self destructs all his anchors as well.

Dahm why didn't i think of this genius strategy. You should really lead a clan like pag

You can ridicule me all you want, but what I am saying is exactly how gas giants tactics work now, in my experience, and what I am reading from Pazoki validates my experience and makes me more confident in it. I am having a hard time believing that you are not aware of these things, and was astonished to see how you approached the gas giant in your game with BRN (i.e. not at all).

What can I say, dude? Try this stuff out before you make fun of it. But you don't like trying it out, which is the whole problem.

From my experience of playing orbital it is not as bad as you make it sounds. 4 avengers = 5 seconds of firing is enough dps to kill a jig. Including the 3 second cease fire it takes 4 avengers 8 seconds to kill a jig. The entire time you have full vision of all of the activity on the gas giant because of a single structure built anywhere in the system, the deep space radar. So you can see where there is no avengers so that you can drop your avengers there. The gas giant is much larger than most planets so it takes a decent amount of time for avengers to come in a defend.

The avengers have 250 health meaning that it takes 10 seconds for a single avenger to kill another avenger. If it takes 5 seconds for the defending avengers to reach the place to defend they have 3 seconds to deal 1000 damage in order to save the jig. Doing some rough maths that means you need around 13-14 avengers to defend that jig.

Considering that both players have to invest the same amount of metal to get equal amounts of avengers. The defender also has to sink metal into getting orbital factories which is 5400 metal, jigs 3000 metal, anchors 3600. This is all metal that the defender has to invest that take away from avenger production.

Jigs are exceptionally fragile and the attacker will have the advantage with positioning. And you know, if you're that concerned about retaliation, you can target the defences first before microing to deal as much damage to the jigs as possible. Which is possible when leading eco; having more avengers than your opponent. When your opponent is entirely relying on the gas giant, the sacrifice of units is probably worth it. Of course doing this is easier sooner than later, the presence of anchors among a large field of Jigs makes it harder.

I was also wondering about the feasibility of setting up shop on the other side of the gas giant, but once the other player is using that eco to set up orbital factories on the gas giant and elsewhere, they're probably in a far easier position for keeping you off.

The maths actually says differently. With 3 seconds, you need only 10 avengers. With 4 seconds you need only 7, with 5 seconds you need 5, and with 6 seconds onwards you need only 4.

So you see, the defending player at best only needs 1 avenger at every jig. And at worst, where multiple jigs in an area are attacked with groups of 4 avengers at the same time you only need 4. Maybe even 5 avengers in groups that cover jigs in likewise overlapping 5 second travel time radius would be even more efficient than the 1 avenger at every jig.

And even if the attacking player is somehow successfull with 4 avengers, he's down not only 200 metal but the opportunity cost of that 3000 metal not being put towards a metal producing asset for 23*4*36=3312. And this is assuming best case scenario of no travel time consideration where the attacking player is constantly sending groups of 4 avengers over a long period of time.

net results being attacking player loses 3200 metal, defending player gains 100 metal even if he doesn't build avengers. In what world is this ok?

5400 fixed cost for an orbital factory? As opposed to 2700 for an orbital launcher? If we spread out 2700 over for example 10 jigs, is this even a material cost?

I am usually a theoretical person, but in this case I would say your math means nothing when Pazoki (and from the sounds of it even I) has put in far more time into attacking and defending gas giants than you have. We have seen the tactics we are talking about work in numerous occasions, so there's no way your math will convince us. Rather, it is you who will be convinced when you are shown in a game that these tactics work despite your math. And once you have understood that these tactics work, it will be easy enough for you to rework your math to reflect the reality that you have seen in front of your eyes.

One of the keys that you are missing is that the attack on the gas giant has to happen as early as possible to have much chance of success. Pazoki already explained that at length. You are assuming that the attack will come when the defender is fully dug in, and then of course it will be difficult to make it work. And that's precisely why you must rush to the gas giant as soon as you notice your opponent is trying to take it over, or even earlier, if at all possible.

And in the last resort all your math shows is that the attacker has to sacrifice a lot of metal to kick the defender off the gas giant. And so? Yes, attacks are expensive, we all know this. And since the gas giant is extremely lucrative, attacks on it are even more expensive, and rightly so. What is the big problem? You were still sitting on twice BRN's eco for half an hour -- plenty of time to take over 2 gas giants.

Lets say both players have 10 avengers. The defenders avengers are sitting right next to the jig that the attacker is going to attack. If the attacker aims the jig and not the defending avengers then they will be able to kill the jig before they all die and the defender will lose the jig and all of the defending avengers in the explosion. Both players lose 10 avengers but the defender loses a jig as well.

You can also snipe the orbital fabricators as they are very fragile which will slow down the ability to expand on the gas giant. So rather than killing jigs you go after their ability to build jigs. This can buy you time to build up more avengers as they have to rebuild fabbers. Sniping jigs will also hurt the enemies economy. If they were relying on the eco from the jigs you are sniping that puts their efficiency down which slows down jig production and avenger production.

You do not always lose your avengers when killing jigs as well. If you micro them right you can make it so you don't lose a single one. You can also strike multiple jigs at once causing the enemy avengers to be pulled in panic to different locations meaning you can kill more jigs even if you have less avengers.

You can also abuse the fact that your opponent has a limit attention span. In the later stages of the game and in multiplanet systems you can just shift que up attacks and forget about them. Your opponent has to be checking for and reacting to these attacks. You can use this to your advantage as it will take their focus away from other areas in the system.

As opposed to running away your avengers whereas the attacking player cannot? Why is player error a consideration?

So, because someone built only tanks against pure inferno, and then drove them into the infernos, tanks are therefore bad and everyone should build infernos?

You mean sniping the orbital fabbers which are being protected by avengers and anchors that block shots? And if they are not being protected, why are we again trying to pass off player error as the way of things?

I don't think you read the point about opportunity costs. No, it does not slow down your economy relative to the other player.

Again, i don't think you read the part where i said 4 avengers on every jig can stop 4 avengers from killing a jig.

Why would i ever queue up attacks if they will all get blown up after the first jig dies? Didn't you just say you need to micro avengers for them not to die? If everyone has limited attention span, isn't this yet again another advantage in favour of the jig owner?

I have never seen anyone perform the perfect gas giant defense that you are describing, elodea. Granted, I have not played on a gas giant against Uber players, I don't think, but I have played against several clan members, such as two BRN guys a couple of weeks ago, and I almost took it from them. What you call "player error" is the natural situation that I am facing whenever I attack a gas giant. The kind of perfect defense that you are assuming doesn't even sound human to me. But maybe you really are that good at defending gas giants, I don't know.

Jigs are fine because people can't (and don't) protect their orbital fabbers - icycalm 2015

Look I've stated my opinion and strategies . My opinion and strategies I came to through experience. I am not saying orbital is perfect or that is as good as it can be. Feel free to disagree all you want. In practice this is how I have found it and I don't think I am alone in my opinion.

A cool trick is to queue a set of say 10 avengers to land next to a jig (within firing range) then shift click attack the jig, and then shift click move the avengers back to the originating planet. This will cause the avengers to attack the jig, and then instantly disappear from the orbital layer when the target jig is destroyed. This way you get the benefit of killing the jig, not losing any surviving avengers to the explosion, and hopefully killing any defending avengers too.