The Ethics Of Mods In Competitive Play

Now that's something you have to explain. How do UI mods make PA more like SC2 of all games?
At least I am also not thinking out of "seeing a threat from SC2 apm spam"-stuff. I have 1k+ hours of SC2 1v1 played and I like that game a lot. Nothing I would be afraid of.

That is a question of game design. Who is responsible for the game design of PA? I'd say Uber.
They provided the APIs and as long as they don't suddenly make a massive step back on that I'd say that is a pretty clear message.

I was quoting cdrkf and responding directly to him.

As for your question, sc2 has a minimap that allows you to have full map awareness. The base game of PA does not, and very intentionally did not include one as officially stated by the developers.

As an sc2 player, i would assume you understand the importance of the minimap, and how that game is basically played via the minimap. Simply try playing sc2 without it - you will be at an ungodly disadvantage.

Then you'll have to clarify why when asked about this, jables answered with no comment. Why UI modding is not promoted full page front and center on the main game screen or splash pages. Why there is a deafening silence of ingame hints, links, and mentions in the official tutorial.

As i have argued to you before, you are assuming total free use of ui mods to be legit purely based on omission. In the same way, I can argue that pushing manhattans to 25 speed with boombots is legit.

Even if it turned out to be true that uber intends modders to also be the rule makers of 1v1 ranked ladder, this is a bad design decision for reasons i think i've already outlined relating to accessibility and fairness, lack of a standardised comparable basis for healthy competition, improper vesting of power, and breaches of consent and mutual knowledge.

dude nothing would prevent them from using mods period.

Have you not read the thread?

knowing how the actual frekin code for modding is set up in PA ?!??

bull-shhit you'll have to dig that up and hold on to your hat because I'm calling Uber-map being implemented into vanilla in PA down the line.

everything.
we LITERALLY had performance mods improving upon bugged Uber alpha code. We still could make one today with enough hard sweat.

that's the point. SC2's ui is shiit. and it revels in it.

the whole skill of SC2 is how good you are at fighting and defeating the UI.

Simulated projectile strategic games have the inverse philosophy. They come along saying :" we want to have a game that shares the same name as "RTSs" but instead of doing the exact same thing provide an actual strategising experience that involves fighting as little UI as possible so you can instead spend more time thinking. If the ui can be made better and if people come up with better ideas to help it we will add it in. or you can just keep using it as a mod"

Taking FAF completely out of the picture because that would just be obscenely unfair of an argument for you :

Total annihilation got patches adding modded functionality down the line such as full zoom out and strategic zoom.

Supreme commander originally had a shiit UI. Literally. the half-transparent unintrusive UI style you see in PA today was originally though up by a modder who made goom UI

transforming SupCom from this :


into this :



the combination of the first picture above and the mass and energy bar in the last picture is the one people started using unanimously.


LOOK FAMILIAR????


yeah GPG copied the mod for their release of FA (much like UBER's release of TITANS which is a compilation of *nanolathe color mod, *fabbing color mod *wreaks mod, *orbital battleships from the galactic annihilation mod, big-*** land experimentals from squishy's mod. and many others I forget because I now accept it as vanilla. Just as you hypocritically do). And you know what? nobody could be happier about it even the modder who continued, him and his friends to improve upon even that (but I said I wouldn't mention FAF.)

You've already said that essentially any ui mod can be deemed unfair. Now you're back tracking and using that to undermine my argument. Nice one...

Ok Elodea, what ui mods are fair in the 1 v 1 ladder?

As I've also stated, if pushed it's obvious what uber would do to fix the issue, disable ui mods completely in ladder games. To think they have the development resources at this stage to create a more complex management system is foolish given we don't even have an integrated mod manager.

This is why I'm saying yet again, there has to be some unfairness that is acceptable for us to use any mod at all (e.g. using more pew pew could be deemed unfair as it could help with quick recognition of units based on the weapons as pointed out by @burntcustard).

You say in one sentence that you don't want to ban all ui mods, then in the next state your line about equal footing in competitive games being essential. Which is it? Those two arguments are inherently mutually exclusive.

1. There are degrees of unfairness in all things.

This is not a reason to add more unfair factors.

2. I was never arguing about specific mods. I completely agree that a compromise can be reached.

3. Don't make assumptions about what I have and haven't played with, thanks.

Nobody is turning UI mods into the "bad guy".

4. Why would competitors not using UI mods affect the uptake of UI mods? Competitive players are an absolute minority of any healthy game's playerbase.

5. PA needs to be balanced. People expect multiplayer games to be balanced.

Your disdain for SC2 simply showcases a lack of knowledge about RTS design and gameplay. Even if you are good at PA, Starcraft is competently-designed in a number of areas. The sequel took that strong design and polished it (unfortunately staying too close to the original). I dislike SC2. But I don't need to hate on it to somehow make a case for PA.

They're both good games.

But nobody is saying PA should have SC2's UI. Nobody is saying mods are bad. Nobody wants PA to be unbalanced.

Why are you saying these things like people have said them?

What are you on about? I don't understand what is so hard to read? Any ui mod can indeed be deemed unfair depending on the context in which it is used. Not only have i not backtracked on this, but this has been absolutely irrelevant to the issues i have raised with your arguement. What?

I hate doing this, because it brings the thread down to the level of debating obvious stuff that a 2nd grader could understand and follow, but irrationality needs to be stopped before it poisons the well.

Pay attention this time, because i'm not repeating myself for the umpteenth again for your benefit. The ui mods which are fair are the ones that are not unfair. Potentially unfair mods are feature additive, and/or provide significant advantage over those not using them.

There is this thing in life called a tradeoff. Rarely is a decision ever perfect. The goal is to resolve conflicts with the best possible solution, not just stare at the broken leg and deny it's existence simply because to fix it would be too painful.

Why don't you be constructive and brainstorm/propose solutions instead. What a thought right?

And again i say to you, who decides what is tolerably unfair? You?

Some mods do not affect equal footing. I don't believe this is a particularly hard concept to understand.

It blows my mind how some of you are scraping the bottom of the barrel talking about pew pew mods and hello kitty icon mods while ignoring the real big hitters that are actually of concern.


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Three things. First, i think you need to take a good hard think about why uber implemented a PiP and not a traditional minimap.

Second, I too hope that uber map is officially integrated. By drawing attention to the issue of powerful ui mods, we have a better chance of this happening.

Third, you need to stop trying to get around filters. I get that you are angry and outraged (why? i have no idea), but maybe you can channel that in a way that doesn't make you look entirely childish and forgettable.

Its actually ridiculous that modding isnt mentioned in the tutorial at all. But in the mean time all the mods that give you big advantages over vanilla are permitted in any type of game. The tutorial is suposed to help and it basicly is the quartermaster with the rusty weapons (no guns or tanks).

@elodea I perfectly remember the creation of PiP. Remember, I was actually participating in the debate then.

Uber did make pip to try and fill the void left by no minimap but it was never a minimap of it's own.
And this does not by extention make them AGAINST minimap. they just said unwrapping was unrealistic representation of the info. Which is 100% exact. Ubermap's unwrapping can be rather stretched at the borders but our brain doesn't process 100% of the info conveyed but the most important overall conclusion and as such UberMap fills it's purpose and actually does fill the void that was left empty. PiP did not serve as a minimap people don't leave it open on the side at all times and it can only show a fourth of a planet at a time and not an overview of all the planets (because there can be more then one). It's true use ended up being for notifications whereupon examining the notification you can examine whether or not that situation is deserving of your full undivided attention or not, and if it is you click on in and you hop in.

It really does have another purpose. And the combination of it plus UberMap makes for an almost completely on-par equivalent to minimap in RTSes that are on flat maps.

as for the claims I'm outraged or whatever it's flat out lies. pin that on things being either lost or found in translation. just don't talk about me. it's off topic. I didn't mention your childishness nor your forgettability and I shan't in the future, let's keep it that way.

this whole thread's a waste of time given nothing's going to change given none of you arguing for "the removal of unfair mods" have any clue how code works and haven't come up with a solution said given dogma of "no "unfair" mods" was applied by Uber themselves.

I'm sure Uber would LOVE to hear your idea.

Elodea, you are getting rather personal in your attacks. Attack my arguments not me please.

If you want a suggestion on how to manage this, my thoughts are:
- Any management should be done *by the community*. Involving Uber is unnecessary.

- For tournaments, organizers should specify what mods are required and also list any that are recommended (e.g. Ubermap) to provide the best play experience for all players and ensure everyone is aware of them. Nothing else is needed here.

- For the ladder, given some player *might not know of mods*, we should curate a list of 'please don't use on the ladder' mods to avoid serious imbalances.

- To the question on 'who decides' personally I think where there is a mod people feel is questionable we should put it to the vote on this forum.

- Any mods not on the 'prohibited list' would be considered fair to use.

- All mods should be on PAMM so they are public- use of unpublished mods should be kept out of official games.

I am personally quite happy to agree not to use specific mods on the ladder (the mods in question I don't use anyway). What I am firmly against is preventing the use of *any mods* on the ladder.

So because Supreme Commander had a minimap it was similar to SC2? That's pretty far fetched.
Uber has not included a minimap in PA because of a) limited development resources and b) issues with projections.

Certainly not because part of the game design was "players should zoom around multiple planets all the time".
If you really believe that..... I dunno what to argue against that believe apart from "but that sounds like horrible game design".

Because Uber simply has limited resources. You know that just like I do. They have all sorts of things people want in the game because of that. Fact is the just recently added even more APIs. They might not want to engage in this discussion (and I can understand them, I am pretty annoyed by this whole discussion as well by now), but they certainly have build PA in a way that allows for UI modding and promotes it on a technical level.
Also I am pretty sure PA was/is advertised as "build for modding".

You really love to go really drastic in your choice of words.
The UI is not part of the rules anyway. Simple as that.

Really you seem pretty enraged about this topic, calling out people to think on the level of grade school kids. I really don't think the issue is that anybody is thinking on that level. It's more that this whole discussion is on a high subjective topic and no matter what you say some people won't agree with you based on their own feelings of what a good game should be.
Like you could argue till eternity and I'd still stand by: "UI mods as they are possible through the limitations of the client side API are fair as long as they are public". Only exception being stuff that anybody instant agrees on (maphacks, etc). While developing Ubermap I did discover such a maphack, reported it directly to Uber and they fixed it.

You might not want to go around liking posts like the one above, then. Said post involves personal attacks, generalises about the subject and debate and puts words in peoples' mouths.

Also, sarcasm + image combo for trollbait.

I sincerely recommend the Report system for anything you find offensive, otherwise you're just going to come across as hypocritical. While colin is involved here, I'm sure there will be someone else who could step in if need be.

For my part, I hope I've been polite enough :/

This is a great discussion and topic! I find myself agreeing with elodea on most (all) of his points.

However as far as I know, the rules are not defined for 1v1. You can say it's the wild west of gaming. We need uber/exodus/pa titans forum or someone to define what are the rules of play. We are playing chess, but some players have all possible moves, blunder alert, and recommend move turned on. It's not fair as is, but we cannot complain about fairness when the rules are not in place.

People who don't care about ui mods in competitive play: WE KNOW HOW TO CODE AND YOU DONT. NEVERMIND THAT UBER ACTUALLY MADE THE DAMN GAME. We've lost the argument so we'll argue that because we can't means we shouldn't. Great logic, you guys. Ever heard of gentlemen's rules? We had them back in beta and they worked just fine. Also dont inflate the games population - everyone who comes to the tourneys or reaches Uber has been to the forums.


Those who think certain mods are unfair (specifically UberMap):
Not all ui mods are equal, and if a mod gives one player a clear advantage over their opponent without that mod, then it is considered unfair.

This is a very simple condition that UberMap fulfills without question. As does free energy. The question now should be what the gentlemen's rules will be and who will moderate them.

This is me:

There is no argument here. Stop dithering, Colin and crew. The conclusion from elodea's side is logically sound and is supported by the evidence.

I still don't see why the Uber map is exclaimed as unfair. I've tried it already and I don't think it gives an advantage at all. Frankly it's just taking up valuable room on my screen lol.

Cover that line is one of those mods that really gives an advantage imo.

The UI mods which are fair are the ones that are not unfair? Why are you dodging the question?

I think you should provide specific examples of fair and unfair mods from mods that are currently available on PAMM if you want people to take your position seriously. If you can't provide specific examples of unfair mods, why are you arguing against theoretical unfair mods that don't exist.

Unfair: UberMap
Why: a player can see everything at once, which is just not possible even with pip in vanilla.
Fair: Hotbuild.
Why: Its just a different flavor of hotkey.

With the default hotkey system it is impossible to reach pretty much anything without pressing two buttons.
Hotbuild enables you to do a lot more in a lot less button presses. That's a new feature.
One could argue that's just as unfair. It cuts down on time you need to give build commands considerably.

So if I go pedantic and start to claim hotbuild is unfair I can do so with pretty much the same arguments. Thus the discussion is pretty much completely subjective. There are no objective facts, apart from the technical reality of what APIs we have. Ofc those have not much to do with fairness, they are just what limits what UI mods can do in a very definitive way.

If I remember correctly it was me who invented them.
It was mainly about not building mex stacked into each other...

i'm curious what part of that post is personal?

"Of or pertaining to a particular person" really? I don't see a name...

what part of the post generalizes about the subject and debate?

and where did it put words in people's mouths? Have I misunderstood what you want?

oh not "removal" just "control in 1v1 and tournaments and ect..."? I wanted to make my post short an concise. the context is something I hope we don't have to re-elaborate in every post otherwise I'll hold you up to that as well.

who's putting words in people's mouths?

EDIT : I'm comming to the realization that you may not have understood the linked post at all.

1. It was talking about code and code alone. Not the Philosophics. Not the Ethics of mod restricting. No. The code and only that.
2. the parentheses where not meant to "put words in people's mouths" they were meant to abstract the general idea. it was just a way to construct the phrase with the topic being under two or three words.

Oh really did they?
I find that subjective to the utmost.

Sure they were better than nothing but I found I, personally, wasn't defended by them and that they didn't cover a good number of issues as well as imposing points I never agreed upon even though I tried to participate as much as possible.

If you remember well several people posted their own threads and it all came down to the one that was top of the forum.

in the end it's one man's preference.

once again you defend something that is autocratic by nature.

that's subjective.

why do you not understand that your word isn't everyone else's?