Doubling the output from mexes and increasing power output increases the economic growth rate several times. It have huge effects on gameplay such as raiding, teching and territory control. Sure you can change it since much of that balance isn't fine tuned in PA yet but it is not something you just do to change the first 2 minutes of the game. That change is insignificant in the grand scheme of all. You spend the metal at the start and from there on after you only have a somewhat more storage capacity. If you mean t1 factories then that is just likely to promote the production of t1 units. The opposite effect of what you say. Those resources are gonna be used by the initial factories. It will speed up the start of the game but if you add the time saved by starting with those structures compared to building them from scratch the time to reach t2 is basically the same. It is like to decrease the action in T1 because players will have more resources to spend meaning that the transition to t2 comes earlier. People might even not expand or harass before they hit t2 because the economical damage that they can do is insignificant.
First factory free and have it built instantly sounds about right. Personally I dont like the idea of an egg like system where builds are preset. I have no idea what I'm doing or going to do for first minute or so and I like it that way. I think the only way for an egg like system to work would be with starting positions with x amounts of metal spots and equal walking distances. Hmm maybe it could work if the 4 closest mex to you commanders start positions are capped one energy and a plant of your choice. The plant you could determine when you see your spawns.
You have to admit, though, this is pretty traditional across most RTSs. Initial build order rarely has much variety to it. I thought we were discussing the more interesting problem of "T1 basically sucks and everyone rushes to T2". T1 needs to be more interesting and valuable across the board, relative to T2. I think the most obvious solution would be to make each commander generate an additional 14 metal and 1800 energy per second -- equivalent to starting you out with 2 mex and 3 energy makers. You could land and make a factory right away. (This still just takes us to T2 that much quicker.)
If T1 factories are cheaper, that's less I have to spend to make that structure, the quicker I can get that first engineer, the quicker I can get him moving, the quicker I'm ready for T2. Anything you do to lower costs or increase outputs or reduce timetables in T1 is going to speed up the jump to T2. Even if my commander just starts the match with +2000 metal, that's +2000 metal that's going to be used to get to T2 quicker. (You think I'm going to spend it on 2000 metal worth of Doxes I wouldn't have otherwise built?) Slowing down the jump to T2 is a whole separate problem.
If every T1 factory were free then an Ant spammer would be able to put a lot more pressure on someone going for T2. This would delay T2.
I would disagree for the most part: Starcraft 2: Early worker scouting SUPCOM 1: You go factory first SUPCOM 2: Commander, initial engineers and a research tree with points to spend Dawn of War 2: Commander unit, one offensive unit and your factory Different RTSs tackle this in different ways, some better than others, but they try and ensure immediate choices from as close to the first second as possible. PA isn't even close to this yet, there's far too much dead time early on. I don't disagree that there will be agreed opening builds, but right now there is an opening build, singular. Factory first will allow for immediate branching.
I think the only sensible solutions is either to start with a free factory of your choice, or start with increased build speed. Every other option removes choice and reduces starting options. Personally I don't see a need for it. You can be fighting from the second minute and there's no such thing as a best starting build. Your initial choice of what you (and your enemy) do dictates the early game. It can vary dramatically. Starting with economic buildings means you have already been funneled into someones idea of the best starting build. You may choose to carry on with the same build order, or you may not. That choice should be up to the player.
I am so retarded. So yeah I was confused to what you actually meant in this subject, so what you mean allowing players to have more choices for your start rather then just going for eco then factory right? Nothing to do with game speed?
Precisely. I want the game to branch as early as possible, because the first branching point is when a player has to make choices. I talk around factories specifically because I see the first factory as being the first branching point in a PA game. Of course there is. The best build is the one which gets you units (plural) out faster than your opponent, and there will always be only one way of achieving this until map starting points vary vastly more than they do now (which they never will because it would stuff the balance between players). It's not until you decide what your first factory will be that build orders can diverge in any meaningful way. This isn't SC2 where you have pre-reqs for units, nor do your outgoings change depending on which unit you build. You put down a factory and you can build everything in it at a fixed rate, this is why there's no variation prior to first factory.
I wouldn't mind if there was a game mode, or option where if everyone agreed, you would start with things such as a bot factory or more resources. That way, if everyone wanted the same thing, you could speed up the early game. I would not choose this myself, but surely it would be quite easy to do this to allow a choice?
Why would you include a game mode whose only purpose is to screw players who don't know any better, where no decision making occurs? Right now I spend ten seconds queuing orders, then over a minute pouring myself a drink and contemplating life. There's nothing in the opening two minutes which requires my brain.
Ahhh, then I would like to personally apologise for my earlier confusion. Yes, more ways to start would be lovely.
Firstly do you want to get units there faster at the cost of a weaker economy, or do you spend a little more focus on the economy so you can get more units out a little later? There are a lot of strategies out there. You can start with an air factory and pump out a bomber to scout and harass fabbers. It may not work for someone who expects it, but it can work. You can go for some variation of metal extractors and PGens. Its up to you. You get to find your own balance between early aggression, risk, and economy. You are able to produce builds that counter other builds. You can change your play style. Assuming that everyone always go the same starting build is stupid.
Why would you include a game mode whose only purpose is to screw players who don't want to skip the first few minutes, where some decision making can occur?
Sounds like you should be pouring yourself something a little stronger? Then maybe you can enjoy that minute, meditate and relax and stuff. I don't wish I would die every time I must suffer through that minute. It might be nice to get rid of that minute somehow. I still say some form of egg idea is interesting. Not only as a game startup, but possibly to start up quickly on any planet where if it is inhabited by enemy then you only have moments to do so. If the egg boosted your commander's walk speed and build rate (both equally to each other), then I would be fine. If it just built the starting structures for you just like you choose and it all appears, that would be fine too. That is because, really most people build those 3 same things each game start, so them magically starting in a "done" state is acceptional. As far as which factory, leave the factory out of it and make the player build it. Then he can choose which. Myself, I see where people are coming from that they like the first moments of a game, chewing over the landscape... I personally probably set the first 4 minutes of the commander's queue within the first minute, then when the factory is done I set those guys up, by time the fabber bots are queued the commander is done with his own queue and I can freestyle from there. Decision making goes into every step sure, but you don't have the option to build scouts or something from second 1. I don't play a whole lot of StarCraft, but isn't that a starcraft sort of gameplay mechanic anyway, units from second 1?
That's kinda where I was going with the idea of making the T1 economy stronger. If you wanted to spam T1 units in T1, you could. Right now, to really spam T1 units, you need a T2 economy. Going from 7 metal/second to 28 per mex is too ridiculous to pass up. It doesn't matter what your strategy is -- the game really starts at T2. So to me, fixing the need to rush to T2 is relevant to making the early game more interesting. The first 3-4 structures are pretty routine but really the whole game up to T2 is pretty close to routine. I have yet to play a match where I said, "Dang, I tried to go T2 too early!" Small map; big map; arty rush; bomber rush; dox rush; ant rush...there's no condition whereby I don't want T2 ASAP. Does anyone feel different about that? I've got over 80 hours in the game and play a variety of people on a variety of maps and my T1 -> T2 gameplay is generally the same. I really only get a chance to branch after T2.
Technically you get 35 metal/sec for every mex spot(7 for the basic, 28 from the advanced). Advanced metal extractors are as cost-efficient as basic mexes which is kind of ridiculous. What would you rather do? Build 4 more mexes far from your base or 1 advanced mex in your base? In TA, SupCom and most Spring games, investing in advanced or secondary metal income was always less efficient than claiming the standard mexes. It was considered a long term investment once battlelines had hardened and it became hard to claim mexes. In PA the exponential growths keeps growing at about the same rate unhindered until all mexes have advanced metal extractors on them. Maybe it is meant to be that way? My game before t2 usually have a lot of branching. Defensive economic play. Dox harassment. Ant pushing. Commander harassment with little support. Heavy commander rushing with full support. Bomber harassment to keep enemy expansion at bay. Tower rushing. Going for early t2 feels risky when the enemy commander is lurking outside my base and I can't allow my enemy to grab too much territory without interference.
Risky to me is when our pelter duels turn into catapult duels and I don't have a catapult. (Catapults are kinda ridiculous too. I've won games before just by getting a catapult up early and catching their commander in range when he didn't realize I had one. It never misses so he's dead before he can walk out of range unless he was real close to the edge.) Or I could go out and grab 16 more metal patches at T1 OR 4 at T2 and get the same additional income. I mean, I think it's patently ridiculous to do anything except hurry to T2. I tried a bunch of alternate strategies in T1 because I used to love pressuring people who were rushing to tech up in other games but I didn't find anything to work as consistently as just teching up. I think even harassing and destroying mexes ultimately costs you more in factories and Ants than it cost the enemy in lost T1 mex production. (Let's see.... 1 ant represents 32 seconds of output from 1 T1 mex... if you built 20 ants, you'd better kill a LOT of friggin' mex to make up for what you spent! If you only manage to wipe out 4 or 5 mex, then you're probably falling behind versus what you could have done by NOT building Ants and NOT attacking at all!)
