The Alpha Commander

I think you got that backwards?

The Alpha concept is back from the Kickstarter days, the Delta had a(at the time) unique design, it's only now that they've implemented the Alpha with the Delta Arms. The Delta's arms never changed.

Mike

When the delta was first shown, both of it's arms were identical: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=43377

However, there was a strong response from the community, so it got changed: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=43561

That much I'm aware of, I'm just confused as to what it has to do with the Alpha having the Delta's Gun/Lathe Arms instead of it's own.

Mike

Well before the change, both commanders had the same left & right arms. Since the Delta was changed, they changed the Alpha commander to match, although that's not to say they needed to copy them so literally (ie. the alpha commander doesn't need the shields imo).

The Alpha always had unique arms, dating back to the concept shown during the Kickstarter in update #6, right at the end of August.

The Alpha only changed when they tried to force the design to conform to the Delta's Rig. Also worth noting that the Progenitor and Theta Concepts also had unique arms. In hindsight it kinda makes you wonder why they did the Delta with the same design on both arms to begin with......

Mike

To give Uber some credit, they did have a reason; The Delta was supposed to be so focused on warfare to the point at which he modified his Lathe... to look like a gun. I think that's pretty intimidating and rather unique if I'm honest...

But design by committee put a stop to that small shred of individuality.

You're quite right about the arms. Not sure how I missed that. I don't think the rig is to blame here though; the actual appearance of the arms isn't that tied to bones, only the positions of certain parts (namely, joints and emitters). Given that the arms on the alpha model don't actually line up properly with the bones, and given they are a direct copy + paste (other than the shields), they may not actually be final.

Yes, I've already come to that conclusion some time ago, garat even confirmed my reasoning.

What I'm worried about is that a system intended to allow for the creation of lots of commanders will result in there being a lot of commanders but they all look same-y and lacking any flair, which is rather counter-intuitive.

Right now system the Rig system is entirely too rigid you are correct in that the Mess can still be different, but the problem is HOW different can it actually be when you have to conform to what the Animations already do?

The intention is solid and I support it, but this is taking it to an extreme IMO.

Mike

aaaaand that's why people should read the entire thread before posting

If there are going to end up being 100+ commanders (I really didn't realise it was that many), then I'm afraid it may be necessary that many of the commanders bare a certain resemblance to each other in some capacities. Rigging may be one of them.

However, even with standardised rigs, it may still be possible to get quite a bit of variation if there are multiple rigs. Would it be reasonable to have 5-6 different rigs, and fit the models around those? I think the discussion here highlights that multiple humanoid rigs are required (say 2-3), and perhaps one each for quadri/hexi/octopedal commanders.

From the experienced modellers here, how many standard(ish) rigs would be needed to come up with a wide variety of commanders?

That depends on how flexible the Rig and Animation system is with regards to models. We can't give a straight answer because that's not as straight a question as you might think. What we fear, given the way the Alpha seems to conform very rigidly to the position of the hips, shoulders, leg length, toes, etc. and the simple "copy-paste" of the Gun and Lathe...

We're worried that its not very flexible.

Nanolathe has the basics of it. The current plan last we heard was for 4 Rigs, based on the commander files currently in the engine;



Although not final, we can see that between the 4 rigs there are certainly differences between the rigs, the problem only really comes in when you compare Commanders with the same frame;



While they are different, they are also very much the same. The details may differ, but the proportions and silhouette are very similar.

So my fear is that yeah, you have 4 different rigs, and the finer details of all the commanders will be different, at a glance they'll all blend together. All along I was hoping the Rig system would be primarily focused on Key areas that take up a lot of Animation work, like walking while still allowing for things like unique Gun/Lathe arms because those animations are simple compared to a good walk cycle. Even then, why can't the Alpha have it's hips or shoulders farther apart? If you could do at least that you could really reclaim much of the Alphas truly unique features and shouldn't impact the animations much, at leas for things liek the Basic Walk cycle, we don't know if there are animations that Uber is planning for that require more impact of the rig than just walks and such yet.

Mike

Double post again, here's a sneak peak at my Alpha model, still some work to be done obviously, the identical arms aren't permanent for example, pose is also just a quick one.



For this one compared to my last one, I did change up the rig. But I Kept the same Proportions to the legs(just shrunk them down a bit and widened the stance) and moved around a bunch of other things, but so far I haven't added anything, I need to check with the Gun/Lathe arms to make sure those still work out but that's for later.

Mike

Hah, the 2nd one from the left really needs reverse-jointed legs. Then it could be a chicken-commander.

You've never seen a chicken in real life, have you?

I know chickens don't actually have reverse-jointed legs, but reverse-jointed leg robots are known as chicken walkers. Plus the torso appears to have a cocks-comb with flared feathers at the back.

It's sort of reverse-jointed already, but not really, since it's standing on tip-toes and the knees are pointed forwards.

I think the current implementation is mostly because PA kinda fears the 100 commanders thing. Given that the rigs are being looked at, these restrictions might be loosened as we get further in the process. (like maybe them adding "alternate" rigs that have the same overal shape but different proportions and 90% of the same animations between them)

Garat has already confirm that this is pretty much the case, but if it happens AFTER all the core commanders we've seen concepts for are butchered and AFTER everyone gets thier Custom Commanders created, I have to ask what the point really is.

As said I fully get the point behind it, trying to streamline things is understandable, but to force strict conformity is going to result in a lot of same-y looking commanders, especially if they need to share the same Gun and Lathe arms. I just think that the system as it is now goes too far.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I like your modifications very much. But you have to take a second look on the shoulders. I think you've misinterpreted the sketch a little bit. On the sketch there is a minimal deviation in the shoulder/arm area (but sketches are not accurate). I think the shoulders and arms should form a straight line. What do you think?