Tanks shouldn't be snipering

I 100% agree. Especially with the bold.

The reason you see the rail gun out more then the JetGun is simple. Not many players come close to a tank anymore forcing me to either just kill bots and whip out my railgun and make them run home even more. If the Jetgun's range wasn't as short as it is you'd see it out more. By the way I have seen more assassins use their secondary then anything else.

Like the other guy said "Adapt or die."

You agree that Tanks use their Railgun more than the Jet Engine. That is the problem. Like i said i wouldn't be saying anything if the Railgun was the default primary weapon, but it is not. This makes the Tank different from all other 5 classes. That by it's self is a problem

I am not advocating that the only solution is to nerf the Railgun, though that is the quickest solution i can think of. Right now the Tanks weapons do not fit in comparison to the of 5 classes. That is why i think a change needs to be made.

Why is it a problem? Why does there have to be some goddamn ranking system on your TWO weapons that denotes some rule where one is to be used more than the other? They are both weapons given to you at the start, they are both useful in different situations, they both involve viable strategies for the game. Did I miss the part in the tutorial where Mickey Cantor shouts "HIYO! Here's your primary weapon, use that **** 75% more often than your secondary weapon or the MNC reserves the right to ban you from any future combat events! HIYO!" Quit bellyaching and deal with it. If your entire life has been invalidated by this minor slight, then I am gravely sorry.

You don't see military men walking around with their beretta, a secondary weapon IS a fall back. This isn't an issue of "my opinion". I'm not even saying nerf the rail rifle, I AM saying give the tank an incentive to close distance. If not a nerf on a rail rifle than give the tanks jet charge more range so he can close the distance and get in close range more often. Though I STILL would bet you'd see an over abundance of sniping rail rifles.

Reaver you CLEARLY are not getting what I'm laying down, so I'm gonna try this one more time then just ignore you if you miss it. I was saying "what if" What if there was a strategy that required 5 assassins on your team to beat, and if you DIDN'T have 5 assassins you were gaurenteed to lose. Would this strategy be balanced? No, because you're forced to wreck your team compisition to compensate for a strategy you MAY OR MAY NOT SEE. Game balance does NOT mean "as long as it has 1 strategy to beat it it's good". Look at the akimbo model 1887 problem of modern warfare 2, you could counter that by using longer ranged weapons. Yet it was VERY clear, they weren't balanced.

Omg.. I didn't want to be involved in such a fail troll thread but i'm falling for the bait...

Does it actually matter? Just, really now. Come on, its not a balance issue, you'r just nit-picking on which slots the developers set his weapons. I'm assuming you are in fact fully grown mature adults, that are spending their time bitching about some very, very small and insignificant feature on a videogame. Nobody is forcing you to play this game, nothing useful shall come out of this argument, it's just pointless, annoying aggravation over pretty much nothing because you have nothing better to do. Watch T.V or something sheesh...

I can't believe I had to type those words to sort this ****-storm out, grow up.

Seems like Tanks are designed to counter Gunners...

This is Monday Night Combat, not the military. Stop sidetracking people with unnecessary and irrelevant comparisons.

It is an issue of your opinion. So what if the secondary is used more? What's the point? Why does he need an incentive to close distance? Discounting grapples, which everyone has, Death Blossom is already the single best close quarters move in the game. That's enough of an incentive to stay in close combat.

However, you're definitely looking at the Tank wrong. He doesn't need to close distance. He owns anyone who tries to close distance with HIM. That's the point of the railgun: harass people until they stupidly rush you, and then you can pump out your real damage. However, the Tank is subpar at mid-range, which is why he gets owned by Assaults, Gunners, and even Supports who know how to space themselves.

In competitive gaming, there are things known as hard and soft counters. Hard counters always win, while soft counters win conditionally. If a strategy has an easily accessible hard counter, it's balanced. The 1887 was not hard countered by long range weapons because a) it had an unusually long range in itself and b) you could easily get in range. Long range weapons were not a hard counter. They were just a way to attempt to get yourself on even ground with the 1887.

Besides the fact that I already responded to your unrealistic 5-Assassin argument and you for some reason are bringing it up again, the fact that you're coming up with false strategies instead of real evidence shows that you really shouldn't even be arguing about this stuff in the first place. "What if" doesn't work. If you can come up with a feasible situation, people would be glad to argue with you, but "what if" arguments are largely stupid and pointless.

Have you ever played Starcraft or any other game that actually requires strategy in addition to tactics (I don't feel like explaining the difference, so you can look it up), or are you just another CoD player? In professional SCII matches, people ALWAYS send a worker unit to scout the enemy's base early game. Why? Because Starcraft is a very deep and complex game, with a wide variety of build orders and strategies. Sending a unit to scout early game gives you a rough idea of your opponent's build so you can prepare for it and build the right units. People who don't scout QQ on the forums about how a certain strategy is OP, and they get laughed at by the people who know what they're doing.

The part in red is a silly claim. It's very, very easy to press Back and see what they're doing and adapt. No formal team strategies have been discovered and established yet in Monday Night Combat, so you just have to rely on class counters, which is fine. If their team composition is better than yours from the start, you lose unless you switch up. Such is life.

Since you seem to have ignored a large amount of my previous post, I'll just repost the relevant portion and give you a second shot, mmkay?

If you ignore me from here on out, I will just assume that I've won this argument and move on.

C-c-c-combo breaker. Well played, Reaver. That post was not only succinct, but also quite educational.

3 shots with the railgun take forever. i only manage to kill people who are really weak or retarded with it cuz the rest reach cover. QQ moar

ur obviously seeing some tanks that dont know how to move so they keep the railgun out so people dont run away. the tank is the class its easiest to run from so why shouldnt we have a weapon that can do that last bit of damage at range?

i personally lead every game in kills using only the jet gun and the charge skill. and have never seen a tank near the top of the list with a railgun. last one i saw was 1-11 i think...

you know that the railgun can shoot through walls right?

I've decided since reaver likes to tip toe around the tulips to present, the cold hard facts.
Now, for this argument, we need to assume a few things:

First; the debate of this argument is that the rail rifle, is too strong. Reaver says its fine, I say its not.
Second; This debate hinges around the sniper rifle, being the best long ranged weapon in the game, we can assume this is accurate correct?
Third; This debate hinges around the jet-fire gun being ONE OF the best short range weapons in the game, again a fact we can all concede correct?
Fourth; this debate hinges around the tank having one of the best close range weapons in the game, and the second best long range weapon in the game, almost rivaling the sniper rifle, and has the best health pool of any class, thereby making him a superior class to any other (according to numbers and facts)

Now for arguments;
First; "it fires so slow, anyone who cant get out of the way is a scrub."
The defense; The base rail rifle has a rate of fire of .9 seconds, it kills a normal gunner in 5 shots, meaning a 4.5 second kill time. with a gold upgrade it fires at 1/.66s, meaning a 3.3 second kill time. The base sniper rifle has a 1/.935s firing time, and takes 4 shots to kill a gunner, meaning a 3.7 second kill time. so the fire rate difference is INDENTICLE to the sniper rifle, with only a minor damage drop.
Second; "you can close the distance and win mid range!"
The defense; The base jet fire gun can kill a base gunner in range in 1.1 seconds, at this same distance. it takes 2.4 seconds to kill a tank with the base minigun (half for dual miniguns). This difference gets more drastic as you switch classes (note, I didn't try this with the assault, if someone wants to check the numbers for me that would be cool)
Third; "its accuracy is SO BAD! you need pin point shots!"
The defense; This argument is not based in game balance but in player skill. If you assume both players in peak condition (again, this is a science/math based argument.) then the tank can hit his mark (and it is possible, if a sniper can be assumed to headshot a large majority of the time). Also peoeple need to realise he actually has perfect accuracy, your shots hit what you've pointed at.


So lets compare to the arguments presented;
Second assumption was proven accurate, in fact the differences between the two guns are pretty close, the only difference being a slight damage reduction on the rail rifle and no headshot capability.
Third assumption was proven accurate as the rail fire gun, when in range, wins out against most other weapons hands down.
Fourth assumption was proven accurate if both second and third assumption were, ergo, the tank has the second best long range gun in the game, one of the best close ranged guns in the game, and the best health pool in the game.

So reaver, since you don't like similes or analogies I've given you cold hard science. Now, you can either continue to skirt the issue OR you can discuss these FACTUAL NUMBERS. Any replies that are not of discussing the numbers will just prove I'm right, and you in fact are just looking to "win an argument" as you say, rather than actually balance the game.

Sniper kills a gunner faster because of the 1 shot kill to the head. Also, the tank is the slowest moving class in the game, and has either the largest or second largest hitbox in the game (not sure which). Keep the tank at midrange if you are a gunner. Remember that deploying kills people twice as fast. Snipers make easy work of the tank. Assaults can bomb from behind cover, or charge grapple (tank is screwed). If the thread is science and math based, we're looking at the sniper being broken. 1 shot kill at any range on any class but tank, yet kills tank faster in every situation.

I like your straw manning, assuming that I wanted numerical values for everything and that I think that everything else is irrelevant. I never said I wanted numbers--I just don't like irrelevant analogies. Numbers don't mean anything if they don't account for practicality as well (more on this later). I'd also like to see where you're getting these statistics from. You can't present them as the "cold hard facts" if there's no source.

First, your assumptions:

The first assumption is correct.
The second assumption is presumably correct, although some may disagree and say that the Gunner's Mortar is better because it does more damage than the Sniper without headshots. I am not one of those people.
The third assumption is irrelevant. "One of the best" means nothing. I can also say that the Support's Shotgun is "one of the best," or the Assassin's sword is "one of the best," or the Sniper's SMG is "one of the best." That doesn't mean anything.
The fourth assumption is just an amalgamation of the previous assumptions, but it does provide that the Tank has the largest health pool in the game. This is correct.

I would also like to throw in a fifth assumption: The Tank is the slowest class in the entire game.

A lot of things are not being accounted for in these numbers.

For your second argument, it's empirically proven that the Gunner's minigun has a longer effective range than the Tank's Jet Gun, which is why he typically wins at mid range. This is where numbers become less important. He can start pumping out his damage much earlier than the Tank can. Additionally, your numbers don't prove that the Tank wins mid range, only that he wins at close range. You said that Jet Gun was "one of the best close range weapons," not one of the best MID range weapons. Your second argument is invalid.

Assuming the new fifth assumption is correct, the Assault also wins at mid-range because he is much more mobile than the tank and can easily juke the Tank's railgun shots (the Jet Gun doesn't reach mid range).

For your third argument, there is a difference between assuming good play and assuming perfect accuracy. If you were assuming perfect accuracy, the Sniper would be OP because he would just instantly headshot everyone. Perfect accuracy is a stupid grounds for an argument. Good play involves good tactics, but not perfect accuracy. The railgun is at the end of the day a relatively difficult weapon to consistently hit and kill with. The sniper rifle is as well, but unlike the railgun, the sniper can headshot, so you don't NEED to hit with it consistently. Your third argument is invalid.

I will concede part of the first argument. The rail rifle is indeed relatively fast and relatively strong. That does not mean that it is easy to hit with. Refer to the above paragraph.

Okay, so after all of that, essentially what you're trying to prove is that the Tank has ONE of the best close combat weapons and a decent long ranged weapon along with a really big health pool. Guess what? The majority claim still stands: he's not very good at mid range.

You also seem to have contradicted yourself. Previously you said that you weren't truly in support of nerfing the rail rifle, but now you say it's too strong?

I will ammend my previous statement, saying that the rail rifle doesn't need a DAMAGE nerf, there are other ways of fixing the problem.

The tank having the Second best ranged weapon in the game, and ONE OF the best close range weapons in the game IS important though, no matter how much you dismiss it. A class shouldn't have MULTIPLE advantages over EVERY OTHER CLASS. Look at games like DotA, league of legends or Heroes of newerth. If there was a hero in any of those who shined at everything he did, he'd be nerfed into the ground. The tank shouldn't be allowed to have; the second best ranged weapon, one of the best short ranged weapons, and the most health in the game. And seeing as the jet gun and the health are KEY to his class, the rail rifle is the most sensible thing to touch.

I'm not implying perfect aim, although I will say that I am TERRIBLE at aiming but can easily lead a target with a rail rifle. Without numbers you're basically saying "Sniper wins cause he can one shot!" if we were arguing PERFECT aim, gunner wins cause he can hit AROUND walls.

My numbers are based on a stop watch and trials, since uberentertainment refuses to give us actual numbers (balance issues, I know) its all we have to work with, though test it if you don't believe me.

I missed putting in my comment about rages farther than the jet gun and I appologize, mid range to me would be about the distance apart (length wise) of the center area in I believe ammo mule stadium (the one with the 2 bridges and fairly straight lanes) at which point without deploying the gunner loses to the rail rifle due to a targetting reticle bigger than the tank. If he deploys you have blinding grenades and a stationary target to rail rifle. We COULD go back and forth about point and counter point but I've given you numbers.

As for his speed, I'd argue it isn't really a hinderance, if you go look at the endorsement rating thread you'll see alot of people putting speed down low, mostly due to speed pick ups I'd imagine. Also the gunner moves as slow if not slower when firing.

Also, I'm confused why you STILL seek to nit-pick and make personal attacks rather than discussing the facts.

Okay, I'll try a different approach to this.

While the railgun is undoubtedly good at long range, there are other long range weapons, too. Sniper rifle, mortar, and even shurikens are good at long range and all do great damage. In fact, actually, most classes have good tools for all ranges:

Assassin: Sword for close combat, lunge for mid range, shurikens for long range (they actually do hurt a lot)
Assault: Charge/assault rifle for close combat, assault rifle for mid range, grenade launcher for long range
Gunner: Slam for close combat, minigun for mid range, mortar for long range
Tank: Death Blossom for close combat, charge for mid range, railgun for long range
Support: Shotgun/Hurtgun/Firebase for close combat, Hurtgun/Airstrikes for mid range, no long range weapon
Sniper: Grapple/Traps for close combat, SMG/Flak/Traps for mid range, sniper rifle for long range

The Support doesn't have a good long range weapon because he's so good at close/mid range, and the Sniper Grapple isn't good enough for sustained close combat, but he makes up for it by having the best long ranged weapon. But the point is that with skill, every class will be able to beat almost every other class at a certain range. The Tank doesn't have an "advantage" in this respect. Mortars and Grenade Launchers are actually phenomenal weapons at long range.

The Tank simply has the most health because he is the slowest. Conversely, the Assassin has the least health because she is the fastest. A Bronze speed endorsement does very little for a Tank, as shown from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1157. The difference is 5 steps per minute.

His speed IS a hindrance. It makes him easier to hit. If you start focus firing a Tank, he will almost always die because his speed and escape mechanisms are so poor. With the Gunner, you have the option of moving faster and not firing. You don't have that flexibility with the Tank.

The Tank also suffers from only having two real skills, as the Tank Deploy is largely useless and often a waste of money to upgrade.

The Tank has multiple strengths, true, but he also has multiple weaknesses. He is presumably good at sustained long range combat (which isn't really present in MNC), good at sustained close combat (which is where his real strength lies), and he has a lot of health. He is horrible at sustained mid range combat, he is slow, and he is a large target, which makes focusing him easy. If you exploit these weaknesses, you'll see that the Tank is balanced.

Here, I'll even provide a way for every class to beat him:

Assault: Stay up in the air, keep your screen on him, and hold down RT. If you can stick him with a Bomb, he's done for, and charge grapple also is easy to connect due to how slow he is.

Assassin: This is very difficult to do because you have to wear him down before grappling him for the kill. As an Assassin, I try not to mess with Tanks, but in a 1v1 situation, I'll empty a few Shuriken clips into him, then rush in for the grapple kill. The Tank is a very hard counter to the Assassin, though, so I would avoid messing with Tanks as Assassins.

Gunner: At long range, you can try to use Mortars, but the Tank is usually better than you are. Mid range is where you want to be. Approaching at mid range and emptying your minigun into him will kill him very fast. At close combat, your Slam > Death Blossom because you can knock him back and finish him off with your minigun.

Sniper: He has a big head. Shoot it. He's really easy to snipe because he moves slowly. Use your traps and flak to make sure he never gets close to you, and just empty your SMG into him if he does try to be funny.

Support: Camp near your Firebase, and stick him with Airstrikes. Use your hurt gun on him from mid range.

Tank: Mirror match.

No it cannot.

Has anyone ever posted one of these "nerf the _______" using actual evidence or data? I get it, sometimes this game poses challenges and that frustrates you. But that isn't a good reason to totally change the classes.

I thought gamers enjoyed a good challenge.