T2 Resource Generation.

I am trying to follow your reasoning and to do so well I have to look at your biases. Anyway, free will is irrelevant if you have incomplete information. Your opponent is not accessible to you. All you can see is their actions in the game world. You will have to make a choice, a decision, about what to do in the game. Treat yourself as an expert system if you like, you have inputs and outputs. They may be determined but your opponent can't calculate them. Free will becomes irrelevant to the question.

Or maybe I am just asking you whether choosing an expansion path should be something you have to do in an RTS. Whether it is worth you thinking about. You are known for having an opinion on what makes a 'good' RTS (whatever 'good' means) so you should be able to answer on that level.

Unfortunately that's where it breaks down. I have an opinion and a desired outcome concerning this particular RTS that completely precludes the 'vertical' expansion offered by increasing your Metal output over a single metal node.

In my mind the Advanced Metal extractors don't increase their production. They alter the risk vs reward calculation by altering the apparent risks associated with expansion, rather than the reward the expansion will offer in terms of raw numbers.

For example. In TA there's the 'Green' laser weapon (or gatling laser if you prefer) Now, across all units, this behaves pretty much the same. It does not have a significant boost in damage for some arbitrary reason when used by one unit, over another. It always costs 75 energy to fire. The weapon remains the same... the chassis you put it on, changed.

The Can is different to the Sumo, is different to the GAAT tower, is different to the Gimp, is different to the Warlord. One is not definitively more 'powerful' than another, because they all behave in different ways, and serve different purposes.

I want that same kind of diversity in my resource system. You don't change the weapon... you change what is wielding it.
You don't change the Metal Extractor's output... you change the chassis that is extracting it.

My opinion is one of a rather severe minority however, and certainly not one shared by the Devs at this current time.

"Plans, contact with the enemy, etc.etc." -- Some guy

What nanolathe forgets about his frictionless sphere is that extractors are the most critical target in the game. Every extractor carries an intangible risk of dying, impossible to truly value because you do not know when or if your opponent will destroy them. Indeed while struggling to protect your own resources, the goal is to blow up the enemy's resources as well!

The main value of TA's T1 extractor is that you didn't care about losing an extractor. It paid off so unbelievably fast that even the fastest counter attacks couldn't stop you from profit. Thus the game encouraged early aggression, with all sides fighting and dying over extractor points for just a little more metal. PA extractors are a bit meatier and tougher to pay off, which slows down the early game more than it discourages extractor spam.

This was not possible with the T2 Moho. It could not be built without some level of assurance that it wouldn't be immediately blown up. This was emphasized more in TA as a dead moho gave no refund when it died.

Due to the exponential nature of Supcom's economy, low level extractors became fairly worthless as a match dragged on. It was still worth grabbing every point, but upgraded extractors quickly overshadowed the T1 and encouraged players to leave the no-man's extractor points alone. This could very well be the case in PA if it includes an extractor that makes everything else look like ****.

There's nothing explicitly wrong with setting things up the TA way. There already exist sniping units and bombers that can take out T2 extractors despite your defenses. There are other tricks that can be used to make T2s stand out a bit more, but the basic premise still applies. The safest spots on the map will always carry some risk, making the choice of upgrade not such an "Automatic" thing as nanolathe suggests.

I do not claim that it's automatic. I claim that it's an equation, and that it's a relatively very simple one due to the extreme reward factor against its associated risk factor.

Upgrading to T2 is risky. I never said that is wasn't. However it's a calculated risk that will either see you with functionally infinite resources, or cripple you so badly that you will lose.

Too 'swingy'. Too little room for error. The equation is tenuous... unblanched. Get it right and it's a licence to print money... get it wrong and it's nitroglycerin in a paint shaker.

Hold on, who said anything about functionally infinite resources?

Our entire point is that in a good implementation you do not upgrade to T2 uniformly over your territory.

Anyway, it seems that we have hit one of your design 'axioms'. As far as I can tell it dictates that there is a chassis structure and a weapon extracts metal and that if any unit has both it's chassis and weapon in common with another unit then the other unit is redundant. Nobody else has this axiom (that I know of), we're not going to come to agreement while you hold it and there's no way I am going to try to argue you out of it.

So, unless you want to argue the hypothetical in which you drop that axiom, there is no point continuing. Although if you drop it then you could convince us to take a course of action which you agree with but for different reasons to the ones you give.

Tell me Nano, out of curiosity:

Do you think Moho extractors were unbalanced and detrimental to TA's economy model? Do you think that TA would be improved by having only one extractor?

Because it seems to me that you must either admit that TA had a flaw, or admit that extractors which produce more metal can work in this style of game. The thought of hearing you admitting either of these seems somewhat paradoxical in my reckoning.

Total Annihilation had lots of flaws.

Well, i never thought I'd hear you say that. I stand corrected.

However, you have sidestepped my question.

Is this one of those flaws? Would TA be improved if there was only one type of extractor?

I've said it multiple times.

To directly answer your question; Yes I do believe that both types of Moho's were 'flaws'. They were however 'designed around'. It's almost impossible to extricate them from the game without completely rebalancing all 200+ units.

TA extractors, at +2, took about 25 seconds to pay off.
TA Moho extrators, at +6, took a little over 4 minutes.
TA Moho metal makers also took about 4 minutes.

Well, would ya look at that. Mohos were messed up because they were identical to makers but couldn't be placed everywhere. Fifth grade math strikes yet again. When will those meddling kids give up?

Patched TA mohos took about 100 seconds to pay off. It was really difficult to destroy a moho in that time(as well as every attempt no longer being worth a significant effort), so it was pretty much the norm to upgrade every one of them you could.

In addition to that, those numbers are only the maximum outputs. The majority of metal spots did not garner +2 and +6 for basic and Moho mines respectively... more like +1.5 and +4.0 was the norm, and a few metal spots were +2 and +6.

Moho Mines on the poorest spots could only drag up +2.5, almost tripling their payoff period.

Moho Metal Makers, if you had the energy, were always +12; almost double the production rate of the most efficient Moho Mines.

Yeah... Metal Makers were so OP in TA. Luckily the Commander isn't much more survivable than a Sumo, so games usually ended before they came into play.