Symmetric Planets

And how would you do that?

Btw: The terrain does matter. If my opponent spawns on land while I spawn on a small sea, then my opponent has an advantage already, because ships are less energy efficient to build than land units. Also my ships probably can't reach all the way to his base.

This is by no means a suggestion to make players feel better about themselves, it's just to make competitive games possible. I don't know about you guys, but I just don't feel right when I win a game because I had an advantage with my spawn point.

same here

Sorry but this game is no "simulation" like Civ 5 or Europa Universalis or something like that.
It's a RTS.

Sure it is. All games are simulations understood in a broad sense. At least Civ and EU are just as gamey as PA, just different.

"I want a fair and balanced game, but I'm ok with unfair spawns."
" This is a simulation and that proves my point."
" Symmetric maps are crap because every RTS uses them."

Some people argue weirdly in here. I'm done here.
How do you convince someone with logic when they argue outside of the framework of logic?

That's the forum equivalent of talking to someone in person, then putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU".

No it's not, because I tried. And I'm always getting the same pseudo-logical arguments thrown at me.
Arguments that don't fix the problem, but are rather a statement of what people like about the current system.

As if that would help fixing the problem. And then if you ask them how they'd fix the problem, they'll answer "by fixing it".

WELL, how delightful.

Now you are just misrepresenting others opinions.

People just want different things, that's all.

Others like innovation, others want the same familiar thing they are used to in a different package.

Anyway, isn't it kind of pointless to write on forums if you expect everyone to agree with you? That is the whole point of this thing, to discuss things.

I know I would love this game to have features that will never be there, but what can you do.. in the end it's the devs' decision to do whatever they see fit.

It's not that I want people to agree with me. I want them to be constructive. And that means that if they have a problem with the idea, then they should come up with alternatives instead of pseudo-logical arguments that don't help anyone.

Simply coming to the thread to say "No, I don't like it" isn't helpful or constructive in any way.
Fact is that it's not balanced the way it is now. So where are your suggestions on how to make it better YOUR way?

Godde's answer was perfectly fine.. you fix it by making the metal points distribute in an even fashion across the map. Which is what Uber has been trying to do all along. And the distribution has gotten progressively better. Question is, how much randomness is one willing to allow.

And I still don't get how you would do that, without taking randomization away completely from metal distribution.

Judging from your responses, you just don't accept that there can be fairness without symmetry. And if you want to be really really pedantic, I suppose that is true. There is perfectly good logic as to why asymmetrical gameplay can be fair too. Again, see SC2 with the different races for example.

In so called "serious" tournaments I expect people to play on user selected maps anyway, so in theory you can review the fairness beforehand, whatever the map looks like.

Asymmetrical gameplay due to different factions doesn't equal asymmetrical maps.
I don't know why the faction thing always seems to bounce back into this thread.
PA doesn't have different factions. (at least not with different unit rosters)

And no I don't think there can be balance without symmetry (either through symmetric maps or symmetric metal distribution). At least I didn't hear an alternative that shows me otherwise. And that's what I'm expecting to hear from you. An alternative that makes sense. If I'm lucky enough to hear a good alternative, I'm willing to change my mind.

But that didn't happen, yet.

Isn't it more that people have different opinions to you on the usefulness of symmetry? Any argument based on opinions is never going to see 100% consensus one way or the other I think both sides have merit, personally.

To be totally honest with you, I don't think that the people who don't see any problem with the system as it is now, should speak in here. Because if they don't see the problem, then the chance that they'll be constructive is close to zero.

And there definitely is a problem.

I'd be really happy to be proven wrong, and that someone would somehow come up with an idea that would fix the problem in a different way than symmetry. I'd change my mind immediately.

But until now, that didn't happen.

How about, play the same asymmetric map a couple of times, and swap spawn points each game? That way, everyone gets to start in the "stronger" position.

Factions keep bouncing back into the discussion because identical factions with symmetrical maps is even more boring.

And the fact that SC2 has different factions is the result of trying to create interesting dynamic gameplay by means of asymmetrical conditions.

As for why fairness allows for randomness, think of it this way: when things are equally random for both players, laws of probability say that over several matches it does become fair.

That's like admitting defeat already. I don't want to have a system that can give one player an advantage over another even if it pans out after multiple matches. That would seriously hurt the game's potential to be played competitively.

It's not a viable solution to just leave it like this.

Sorry, but no.

I'd rather have one fair match instead of multiple unfair ones.

I think you guys don't really get what I'm saying.
I have no problem with asymmetry. But only if that asymmetry doesn't give an advantage to one player over another.

In SC2 there was asymmetry due to different factions, but those didn't give anyone an advantage over the other, because those factions were balanced.

Again: Asymmetry is fine, players getting advantages over other players due to asymmetry is NOT.

Greetings

Yes.. and we believe that just as the factions are balanced in SC2, so can procedural map generation in PA be balanced so that it is fair for all players, without being symmetrical. It may be hard, but certainly possible.