Supports post DLC:

I don't mean to start a war here...

But most of the people in this thread complaining have Support's picture for their profile pic or in their sig.

I remember when Assassins were "nerfed". Threads like this were made, posters with Assassin pictures for their profile pic and sig complained. AND THEN everyone told them to get over it and learn to adapt.

If you told the Assassin players to learn to adapt when their favorite class was "nerfed", maybe you should take your own advice? Uber obviously doesn't want the Airstrike to be a commonly thrown ability. It should be used conservatively based on the changes they made. Adapt?

Looks like the Support is the new Assassin since this patch. :lol:

Didn't the assassin get pretty much fixed back to the pre-patch state, and now has some perks?

The dagger lunge got a little more damage back, but nowhere near where it was. (+)

Slaps are now the same as main grapple. (+) small plus because they are really only for laughs

If you hear a cloak you KNOW it's an enemy sin now (-) for sins (+) for everyone else

As far as pre pre patch, the lol cloke while backstabbing was a big hit to lesser assassins and took some getting used to even for myself.

I actually sided with the Assassins on the lunge-grapple nerf, as it was ridiculous that a Silver Armor Gunner didn't die from a lunge-backstab. (BoltAktion did this to me when he used to play) But, that's a different story.

I'm not saying that people should stop playing Support. The base needs to be built up, which was one of his jobs (now his only job, but you get my point). I'm just saying that turtling every game gets tedious and boring, and having more offensive capabilities taken away is pushing me away from my favorite class. I'll have more fun playing other classes, as I can't combat pros and and push bots as well as I used to with the Support, so in the end, I'll just end up not playing Support anymore.

I will agree that a war isn't what we need, but adapting to being forced to turtle every game sucks. No one likes being on the defensive the whole game. =/

Space...
Time...
Tearing...

You've doomed us all!

I don't want a war either. I just want to be able to effectively discuss the issue and make sure this isn't day one balancing reaction.

First, Supports don't have to turtle. If you want to be on offense find a true pure offensive class (Gunner/Tank/Assault). Stick your Heal Gun to them and watch them do damage.

I believe you should get assists for doing this, however, and that would be a change I agree with. More specifically, if the person you are healing at that time, scores a kill, you get an assist and the money that comes with it.


Finally, I think we have to come to terms with the fact that Supports are inherently a defensive class much like Snipers. Supports play the Active Protection role and Snipers play the Preventative Protection role.

Snipers are able to preventatively protect their base through area denial (Flaks/Traps) and keeping pros at a distance. Once pros get to the base, though, they lose much of their defensive capabilities. Supports compliment that by directly protecting the base through healing/hacking and a free turret (firebase). Once pros get to the base they shine in their protection abilities by helping the base weather the storm. Their area denial is the airstrike, but as preventative protection is secondary to them, the cooldown length makes sense.

Because those classes are both defensive I don't think Snipers should be able to push into a base or destroy turrents at will (and they can't), neither should Supports.

Just my two cents and a way for me to make sense of the changes.

I do agree with this, unfortunately we didn't get to implementing it for this DLC. I am not saying you will see this in the future. I'm saying you may see it in the future.

Have you actually played the sniper or the support?

But churros don't pop out that often in Crossfire, and when they do you're competing with 11 other players to grab it first.. and you're the slowest player on the field except for the gunner, and dont have a charge. Not to mention you're very likely not to be in the middle of all the exploding bots, you're more likely to be far away cowering behind a turret or firebase - keeping them alive so you can at least pick up a little coinage. The only quick kills you have on Blackjacks _is_ the Airstrike (1 a minute) or a Grapple, given that and the regen rate times, that would be mean farming churros would consume your whole game.. ("yay, got a churro, lets airstrike another group of bots for possibly, maybe, probably not, another churro"). That would also mean you're not going to be using your Airstrikes for anything else at all, esp. Turrets. The logic kind of stinks too... I mean, I dont see any other serious recovery reductions to the other players due to the existence of churros. What about freeze traps? What about bombs and flak? Cloak? What about tank and assault's charges? What about explosive bullets?

Considering it takes 2-3 airstikes in a row to destroy a turret, you'd have to save them up. Which means no attacks on pros, no defending with it, no escape usage, nothing. For at least a minute for 2 .. with endorsements. As for keeping your turret alive, thats much harder to do when you don't have airstrikes to ward people off. The money earning factor is dire even with a fb and turret or two that might be lucky enough to be killing bots in the chance that your team isn't clearing them out well before you ever see them... which is hopefully the case btw.

It's everything added up to the sum, not the individual nerfs... although the airstrike one is insaaaaaaaaaane. For example.. shotgun = less useful now because you can't use a midrange attack (airstrike) to crowd control and "lead" people, or to use it reliably as an escape. Also, if you want airstrike to regen faster that means gold or silver endorsement, which means ROF is not gold which means both the H/H and shotgun are less useful or it means that Armor isn't gold/silver and you're dying even faster and never getting earned juiced.

Also.. I really think this is crazy when its looked at: From spawn before upgrades, Every 40 seconds to 1 minute the support gets practically the same damage area as the Assaults bomb. Except the Assaults bomb 1) regens way faster 2) is controlablle and can be used "sneaky", While the Airstrike 1) Broadcasts itself and its target area like a screaming banshee 2) Once its thrown its target is chosen. It doesnt really improve with lvl 2 airstrike either. Not to mention Assault can pick up some churros.

Not trying to come across as argumentative and the game isn't ruined for me at all.. not going to say bs like that, but holy crap batman...support is barely worth using now.

I'm going to assume this is a legitimate question and not one meant to try to call out my experience.

If you look at my Sig you will see that I play Sniper primary on two maps. Snipers are one of the weakest classes at destroying turrets and are so fragile that they can not push out a Gunner/Tank/Assault once they are in your base. Freeze traps help, but are not guaranteed.

Also, if you look at my sig, I do not play Support very often. The friend I play with only plays Support, so I try to pick other classes to compliment his choice based on the map.

Why are you asking if I ever play Support? Can I not have a perfectly valid theory based opinion even though its not my most played class? I've played this game enough to have a good enough understanding of the class to know their limitations and potential roles. What about the last 4 paragraphs of my last post did you not agree with?

The Assault is the ASSAULT class. Their bombs should recharge more frequently and be able to be used more often. They are supposed to be on the front lines pushing back bots and pros. Offense is the name of their game.

The Support is the SUPPORT class. Their offensive capabilities shouldn't be comparable to offensive oriented classes. Therefore it makes perfect sense that their airstrike be slower to recharge than the assault. Defense and Support should be the name of their game.

Also you seem to forget that the airstrike is an insta-kill regardless of where the enemy is within the radius. The bomb does not insta-kill. The Support sacrifices Slower Recharge for Higher Damage while the Assault sacrifices Lower Damage for Faster Recharge. Seems balanced to me.

Why are you even posting in this thread? Your arguments are weak and vague. Go away.

No, you can't. It's pretty obvious in your recent posts.

Then please educate me. What part of the below argument is weak and vague?

Supports airstrike gives you a a warning it's coming with sound and a massive visual, and once you hit the airstrike button it cannot be controlled, it only goes down.

Assault bomb can be controlled when it explodes, and is small, but audible.

A tagged player can run under cover and escape an airstrike. A Head crabbed player is dead.

Please don't hate me for anything that I am about to say.

I get that you introduced churros for the recovery time to make sense, but it comes off more like you guys just wanted to add a cool new feature to the game rather than compensate for the support nerf. The presence of churros benefits the support far less than other classes, given that now supports can't RELY on anything for their airstrike regen. Every other class gets to keep their skills AND get a pretty once-in-a-while boost. The airstrike is generally thrown from a distance, as it's the support's only long range combat. It's impractical to think that he'll be able to run into the heat of battle, grab the churros, run out, and throw another airstrike.

And I still don't understand this 'power' that you speak of. Yes, it's a one hit kill in most cases, but it's ENTIRELY avoidable.. and to truly make it close to impossible for someone to avoid it you have to throw 2-3.. thus reducing the spam factor anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I think churros are a great addition with the ability to juice chain gone (THANK GOD), but it wasn't necessary to destroy the airstrike because of it. The assault will be far more likely to spam his bomb now as he can withstand the heat of close combat.

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Now. As far as earning money goes, like SXD (the AUTHORITY of turtling) said, your turrets won't see too many bots .. and even when they do, it generally means that the other team is controlling the game and that usually comes with juiced players destroying the turrets that you've worked so hard to earn.. only POST PATCH we no longer have an efficient way to attack them at a distance. We can sit, heal, and hope.

Sorry if that came out rude, but the way you proposed the idea of turrets being a great money source came off as rather condescending.

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If after all the arguments you guys still feel like you made the right move, so be it. This game will be come team deathmatch, though, given that the support's abilities are reduced.

From an offensive perspective:
Pre-DLC - A support could follow his team mates into a firefight and be confident that if he were separated from the pros he was healing he could hold his own enough to make it out alive. A support could also be confident that he'd benefit personally in some way, be it a good juice gain, or the ability to get consistent kills with an airstrike and would have some dollars to upgrade his skills.

Post-DLC - A support can now follow his team mates into a firefight, and if he is in fact separated or the other team is overwhelming, the support is lucky to get out, and IF he does, he has little juice gain to show for it, and he likely will not be able to use his airstrikes to escape, because any good support will have used them to help with enemy turrets/pros/bots and will now have to wait over a minute to get them back.

From a defensive perspective:
Pre-DLC A support could turtle in his base and create some great defenses. He could earn juice in a timely manner to deal with enemy juiced pros trying to take out turrets. He could ALSO lob airstrikes semi-regularly out to deter gunners from using the mortar, assassins from using the shurikens, etc.

Post-DLC A support can turtle in his base and create even more efficient turrets, except the only damage-inflicting turret that is useful costs like 6 times more than what it used to be, and he has a FAR more difficult time earning that money ESPECIALLY from his base. If an enemy pro is damaging turrets from a distance, a support can still lob airstrikes out, though far less regularly, and IF he in fact scores a kill, he is forced to watch his churros disappear as he will not be as safe if he runs out to grab them. Furthermore, he is far less likely to be able to deal with juiced pros as it will be near impossible to get juice himself, as the turrets don't lose their overheals very quickly. He is a sitting duck behind a wall of turrets that can all be destroyed in seconds by 1-2 juiced pros.

I just do not see how this is balance. :|

Now, churros are absolutely wonderful for just about every other class. if tank gets a jet gun/charge/death blossom kill, HOORAY, free health/skills. If an assault gets any sort of kill, he can charge in/out and stay relatively safe. If an assassin gets a backstab kill, she can grab the churros, cloak and run away.

They'd also be lovely for supports as well, but whilst in any danger they'd need to use the airstrike to cover themselves whilst grabbing the churros. This, however, is a paradox, because the support needs the churros to throw the airstrike to cover himself while he grabs the churros that he needs to throw the airstrike to cover himself while he grabs the churros that he needs to throw the airstrike to cover himself while ...

Anyway, that's my 34897538945 cents.

double post

Every single one of them. How about really reading my previous posts and of others instead of just yelling BUT SUPPORT IS SUPPORT, ITS A DEFENSE CLASS. No one will argue that those are not the supports major roles. This thread is not about that, at all. Also.. how about not assuming an reference to attack or kill, or destroying bots,.. only means offense :roll: .

You are missing all the obvious aspects in this conversation. Even if the person playing support is defensive and support minded, strictly, they are at an extreme disadavantage in all categories now. This has nothing to do with directly with trying to play offense or trying to play defense, its an overall reduction of usefullness for everything:

Money earning the worst of all players: buying upgrades, buying turrents, buying juice.

Juice earning/buying. Fine whatever. Understandable nerf, but now that we get no cash and the cash that is earned _has_ to be spend on turrets and upgrades... Juice is practically a no show.

Kills, yeah right.

Self defense ; surviving any other pro attack that is worth it's salt due to weak *** damage reduction and the forced need for lame sponsors. the nerfed airstrike ruins the ability to defend and protect just as much or more than any offensive capability.

Few kills = little money. turrets = make you money, but get walked right over. you can't build strong turrets if you can't keep making money. other players are going to be buying their upgrades and juice, not turrets. when they do its rare.

Btw, in what world do you live in where Support class means Defense class? Support classes are a part of the Front Line by supporting it (duh and duh) and additionally, Supports have a FB which is critical to Map control. What better what to "support" than map control and by supporting your players? Which is one of the other things you harped on about btw... tail gating a tank or gunner the whole time... yay... fun.

You don't play support, so your opinions are based merely on observations and not on experience. Support can push lanes and be offensive in the sense it could pick a spot to set up and protect via firebase and airstrikes. Saying support is purely defensive and should be because it's called "support" shows a naivety about the class. They should not have to be turtling turret huggers, but now that's exactly what they feel like.

Regarding snipers, they can be very offensive. If you've ever been pinned inside your base by a sniper pushing lanes and controlling one side of the map, then you know how truly offensive they can be, even moreso than a gunner, tank or assault. They can take down turrets. Flak grenade at level 3 is beastly.

Your opinion on both classes are due to either not playing a class or a choice of playing style, but that doesn't mean either class is limited to how you think a class should be played or whatever role you choose to pigeonhole a class into. If I told you that gunner is only good at deploying inside a base to destroy waves of incoming bots simply because that's the way I play the class (which I don't, btw), I'd have tons of people telling me my playstyle didn't dictate the range of the class, just the limitations I put on it due to my lack of experimentation or imagination.

The difference between the warnings is significant. I think it fits each abilities intended purpose, though, and doesn't mess up the balance. Why?

The Assault bomb is made to catch people off-guard and hopefully kill. Seeing as they are primarily anti-pro, I think its fair their version of bomb have more control. Its very offensive which fits the offensive role of the Assault.

The Support bomb seems more made to create area denial (similar to the Sniper Flak). Its bright and noisy and VERY deadly. Meaning you are guaranteed to force your enemy to move. Its more defensive and strategic, than offensive. This fits the defensive/support role of this class.

Also the sticking part of your point also falls in line with the deadly v area denial argument. If you stick an enemy with the Assault bomb, its deadly, fitting his offensive role. If you stick an enemy with the airstrike, you force them to choose death or move generally away from where you are, reinforcing the area denial aspect of the skill.