Super Units Being In The Game

for god's sake, stop with that sh***y argument ! :x
"you want something to be in the game ? well no, screw yourself and make a crappy mod to have it"

I'm sick of reading posts that essentially say this. I want to play a game called "planetary annihilation", not "homemade PA with extra ketchup, sausage and whatever sh*t you put inside".

apparently a large number of people want to have huge units because that's awesome. it doesn't have to be over-powered like in supcom, it just needs to be enormous. you don't sell a game just by saying "the gameplay is perfect", you sell a game because you have ships with legs, because you have skyscraper-tall robots, because you have flying saucers shooting lasers -and of course- because you can smash asteroids into planets

this is the kind of things I and many others want in a game, I'm not asking to make an upgraded version of supreme commander, but if we only have a bunch of peewee and tanks to fight with, it won't be as fun.

I'm fine with an answer such as "we don't have time right now, probably in a post-launch patch or extension", but please stop saying "you'll find a mod for that", that's the most useless answer ever.

If it's still not clear enough : i don't like mods, i feel like using cheat codes. you can't just change the game to have it fit your whims, i want the regular game, and if i don't like the regular game i don't play it, I'm not going to install 40 different mods to fix everything i don't like.

and seriously, imagine you are making something, you want it to be perfect, and when it's finished you see everyone changing stuff in their own way, how are you supposed to take it ? well I would take it as a personal failure since people are visibly not satisfied with the normal product. But I would also take it as an insult : I worked hard to make it this way, yet people are changing everything, this is plain disrespect.

it's just like if you go to the restaurant and say "i don't want your sauce for my salad, i brought my own", people don't do this, well, i hope you don't do this, it's considered very bad manners.


PS : and sorry for the bad language, but i saw this kind of posts in every single thread i read, that's kind of annoying...

I understand what you are saying, it is a bit annoying hearing the same thing again. Sometimes modding can get annoying but sometimes people just want to have fun, they paid for the game, they should be able to do whatever they want with it, why should we give a sh*t? Let them do their own thing, while we focus on what we enjoy. I think this is much better way of looking at it.

I don't think it is a case of replacing, but instead, adding something more to the mix, for example.. "Do you mind if I add some olives (or whatever) to my salad, I brought my own." People are adding content to something that they already enjoy, cause if they didn't they wouldn't have put in the effort to mod the game in the first place.

It's not an argument, all it is, is an honest opinion that someone has shared with other people about these types of features, that may not be present in the final game. Maybe someone else agrees and a mod is developed by those to people, who share common interests, it does not effect anyone who does not feel the same way, and doesn't want it to be implemented. It's not like they are being forced to download it. If it doesn't effect you, WHY SHOULD YOU CARE.

Simple answer: because it is likely to affect him, a whole lot =p

xD Indeed it will

i'm not saying modding should be forbidden, since this possibility is common in recent games, but what i don't like is the idea of saying "you'll probably find a mod for that".

so why do i care ? I'm not going to install any mod because i don't like it, but what if the developers start to think in the same way as you ? i don't want to end up with a game that has barely a dozen units because "if people want more, they can find a mod for that".

okay, i perfectly know that there will be more that a dozen units in the final game, but my point is that the game should be complete without mods. no one should need them.

if people want to use mods to make completely overkill and unbalanced units because they like it, well, that's not my problem, but in my opinion making the game should not be done while thinking that if something's missing, people will make a mod for it.

I gotta agree that this "u can mod it in" is just an excuse and not really an argument. You can mod the whole game if u wanted but I want to play my main game time in the actual game not a mod.

The "you can mod it in" position is used for cases when players want something appealing to them, but which really adds very little to the game, especially for how much development resources it might consume. Super units fall into this category perfectly. They represent a larger-than-normal commitment of developer resources to make a unit, and such a unit will almost certainly weaken gameplay rather than make it more interesting.

So, if you want one, you should play a mod with them. I guarantee you there will be plenty of them. And if you object to modding, well... you're kinda being stubborn for no good reason.

I apologise for the antagonistic tone of the following post, but this is getting ridiculous.

You're supposed to be ecstatic! People ave bought your product and love the 'base' so much that they are willing to spend hours upon days upon weeks upon months to create new and different content for your game for NO monetary cost to you.

You use a restaurant example... let me provide my own example that is much more closely related to gaming;

I play a tabletop wargame called Warhammer, perhaps you've heard of it. In THAT game modifying the characters and adding your own unique flair to the army is a sign of you CARING about the product. It is most definitely not considered "bad manners".

Nobody needs huge units (that may very well be super powerful) in the game.

However the units that I'm seeing in the game already, like the Unit-Cannon are already as large as any 'experimental' from previous games.

lapantouflemagic it's very clear that you want experimentals in the game. You started a thread that specifically asked for them AND wanted them to be an even greater focus of your games micromanagement time-sink since you wanted them customisable.

However, you need to understand that you are NOT getting experimentals, or even anything that resembles them (other than size) in the base game. Uber is giving you the Unit-Cannon and we know that some Metal Planets are in fact deactivated (but fully armed... if not currently operational) battle stations.

When Uber has practically come out and said that you'll be able to colonise a planet, add indefatigable factories and indomitable defences... and THEN reactivate the very metal soil upon which you stand and then control the PLANET itself!.. and you're still complaining about not having big enough units... well, most people will start to get a little mad at you for being so self-entitled about your little experimental fetish.

You don't get to make demands like that. This is NOT your game. This game was not funded entirely with your money, it was funded by all of us.

Coming into this kickstarter I understood that this was a return to the roots of RTS itself and to one of my most beloved games of all time, Total Annihilation.

TA did what no other game of the time could; render hundreds of full 3D units in real time across the some of the largest scale battlefields ever seen. It made me the commander of armies... huge sprawling armies with a massive economically and strategically important base that also had to sprawl out (or not on metal maps) to find rather scarce resources (or not on metal maps :lol

I paid my 150 bucks knowing that Uber was going to make another game like TA. Hell it was mentioned by name in the kickstarter pitch video... Only this time it was TA with battlefields unlike anything that has been seen before.

The HOOK of this game is NOT the units...
It never has been ABOUT the units.
It's about the PLANETS!

edit: again, I apologise for my slightly antagonistic tone.

I agree pretty much on this. I have no problems with mods as well, but using mods always felt to me like playing something fake or as above mentioned as kind of cheating. Even if you got some nice new units that looked cool etc, I couldn't help but always think it wasn't original, or it was overpowered or lacked something else.

Back then when I played TA regulary, I didn't use mods, but I downloaded all the offical units that came from directly from cavedog. All the units incl. their looks and animations just felt balanced and right, even if I didn't used them. So, I am sure there are "high quality" and balanced mods and I am sure there will be some for PA, which I'll maybe give a try, but I also share the opinion that the original game (incl. expansions) should cover most desires from the gamers and I think plenty of us want some big units.

I don't care if units are big or not, so long as they have a clearly defined role nor do they invalidate and replace other units that I have.

[EDIT:] In response to nanolathe's cutting remarks: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu4f8nUrVp1qztwte.gif

I concur. The problem with "super" units is that they invariably supersede 90% of all of your other units. Now maybe Uber can put in units that are specialised, and don't automatically invalidate your army, but instead enhance it.

Like a mega-huge structure that can swiftly relocate units for a surprise assault. Maybe drop them in from orbit after a lengthy loading period. Maybe it could be some kind of large artillery piece that fired units in a cannon like way...

I would call it a Unit-Cannon myself.
[Original Idea copyright nanolathe. Do not steal]

I don't usually quote snipe like that... it's not my style to get all up-in-arms... but...

my point is : i want big units, a lot of people want big units, but since a bunch of people are completely opposed to this idea -whatever the technical cost is- we're going to need mods to have them.

and please, be serious. i don't have an "experimental fetish", i want big, awesome units. i don't care if they are really experimental or not, i don't care if they are really powerful of not, i don't really care if they are just huge version of normal units, i just want to have them and be able to play with them. and when i say "play with them" i mean in a real game, even if it's completely overkill or a terribly inefficient way of spending ressources, i want to have the opportunity to attack with a ridiculously huge unit.

I admit that the unit cannon is cool, metal planets are neat too, but there's also other stuff people want. So yes, I want big units, i don't own the game, but you don't either. there's 44.000 people backing this game for a total of 2.2 million dollars, without taking into account pre-purchases. do you thing all of them shares concerns such as "will starting units be still effective in late game ?" or "won't that add more micromanagement ?" ?

well i think most of these people are not expert players like you or whoever. I dare to believe they are closer from me in the way that they don't care that munch about those gameplay concerns as long as the game is balanced correctly. I trust people backed the kickstarter while having in mind the awesomeness of both PA and SC, PA created the flow-based economy that made the game so special, and SC notably added a great variety of huge units and the strategic zoom.

Now it's part of the game, starcraft implemented 3 very different races, now fans will expect factions to be entirely different. you cannot deny what supcom added, people got used to huge units, and felt that's awesome. You cannot remove them without disappointing people, and after PA you won't be able to make a game like this without multiple planets to fight on, even if you claim being only the successor of supreme commander.

on a gameplay aspect, as i said, i don't even ask for huge units to be excessively strong, they even can have a poor cost-efficiency, i wouldn't care. What it could bring is not only about inside the game, what it would add is players.
you both perfectly know a lot of people want those, how many threads have you seen somehow related to "experimental units" ? i wouldn't even take a risk by betting it is probably be the most frequently asked question on this forum.

the game was founded by fans and it should be designed to please them, but it doesn't mean it has to be some kind of fan-only community game. the game is already funded, so uber entertainment is not going to lose money whatever happens, but if no one buys it after release, it will be a failure. that's an extreme case, yes, i guess most fans already have their copy, but how will the wide public perceive the game once it's released ? will they be as enthusiastic as we were ? i can't guarantee that, no one can, but we removing a cool feature is not going to help.

Basically, I bought supcom for two reasons : the first is I knew it was in the same vein as TA and it would be awesome, and the second is because there's on the back of the box a picture of a gigantic spiderbot stepping on tanks and shooting a freaking megalaser

to sum up my point, i want to convince people that if implementing huge units is not worth its time regarding gameplay benefits, it benefits awesomeness a lot, and awesomeness means more players, more players means more money, and something that means more money is worth your time as a developer. (if awesomeness is not enough)


but i still, want to finish with this : if you don't like huge units and prefer fighting with pee-wees until you die of old age, why don't you find a mod that removes them ?



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edit : and come on, it's a RTS game, of course it's about units

But you could always mod that in. :lol:

You believe it benefits the game a lot.

Until you do a concrete cost-benefit analysis that proves it benefits the game, all you have is belief. The best evidence we have at the moment is the testimony of people who've made games before: Uber. Now, what's their view on super units?

If the evidence supported super units, I'd be in favour of their inclusion. Simple. As. That.

To be fair, my impression is that the answer is not no, it's "not at first". I think earlier this suggested the may be leaving themselves options to add them later. They have repeatedly said they plan to continue working on the game after release, and they haven't even done alpha yet.

Does large/Super/Experimental/whatever units seem to have demand? Yes, but because of the massive changes the game is going to have compared to previous games (planets, and moons, and crazy scalability), I think it's fair to let them get a base game out the door, then add more content.

lapantouflemagic... where do I start...

You confuse me.

You stand on a soap-box proclaiming for all the world that Experimentals are "awesome" (and possess a greater degree of that awesomeness than anything else).
You claim that all you want are big units... even if they were just larger versions of the standard units.
You claim that you bought SupCom... presumably for $45+... because of box art.
You claim to understand "awesomeness" and its direct ratio to time, cost, efficiency and how that will generate profit.

You claim that you are right and that Uber is wrong.
You confuse me on a fundamental level.

You believe that a large unit is somehow... "better" or "more awesome" than a smaller unit. Is it more worthy of your attention if it is larger? Is size truly all that matters to you?

That seems a very... shallow viewpoint to take.

If you want to get into a debate about what a unit can DO... that makes it stand out and be special... then please feel free. But you will not convince me that a unit is "awesome" just because it is larger and carries a bigger gun.

Fighting an RTS battle on a spherical battlefield is awesome,
no RTS game, to my knowledge has let me do that before.

Moving a Planet sized battle station, that I reactivated, is awesome,
no RTS game, to my knowledge has let me do that before.

Attaching massive rocket engines to an asteroid is awesome,
no RTS game, to my knowledge has let me do that before.

Using said asteroid to smash into an enemy controlled planet is awesome,
no RTS game, to my knowledge has let me do that before.

Shooting units from a giant cannon across space is awesome,
no RTS game, to my knowledge has let me do that before.

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Building a larger unit, that carries a bigger gun... is not awesome,
Every RTS game, to my knowledge... has done that before.

Edit:

I think you don't understand what a fetish is.
When most people say "experimental" in regards to SupCom they think; "Overly large and powerful unit". That is what you want. Big units. You have an experimental fetish. You think that the game is not worth playing if you can't build a Mega-Ultra-Colossus-Bot-o-Doom.

To put it bluntly; You paid for what you thought was going to be "SupCom 3".

I'm stopping here. I don't feel like I'm able to continue without getting sent into "timeout" by a moderator.

+1 to nanolathe. Lapantouflemagic's above post is just weird from start to finish. The size of the unit is irrelevant. Capital ships in Sins of a Solar Empire are supposed to be many kilometers long- perhaps you should go play that. And if it is purely the size of the model on the screen that is of importance, then I really just don't know what to tell you. Size is not interesting. Go play chess with all the pieces being twice as large. Because that is essentially what you're suggesting.


And I think that the most frequently raised issue on the forum is one of two things; most likely it is how air units will be implemented in PA, because air units are one of those aspects of Total Annihilation, and also in SupCom, which could use the most improvement to make them more interesting.

And if it's not regarding aircraft, then the most frequently raised topic is definitely the economy. Because SupCom 2 is essentially a case study in how breaking the economy breaks everything, and yet at the same time the Total Annihilation economy probably isn't the be-all, end-all economic system for all time. SupCom had the subtle but very serious problem of runaway mass fab turtling, which FA fixed. And Zero-K seems to have made some large improvements to the TA formula.

I would like to point out that for me it isn't so much the size of the unit that matters as is how awesome the unit is to use.

For example, I loved the Cybran amphibious tanks because they went underwater as opposed to hovering over it. On maps with seemingly inconsequential masses of water, these guys would be seriously devastating if used correctly. The Monkeylord wasn't only awesome because of its size, but also because it was stealthed and amphibious, which meant you could imagine the look on your opponent's face if he didn't see it coming.

When I think of my ideal vision for "experimentals", I don't think of sup-com or TA, mostly because I have played little of either series. I think of Age of Mythology: Titans.

For those of you who are not familiar with the game, the absolute end-tech unit was a Titan, a collosal melee unit that had a devastating attack. However, it did have some limitations: it could be killed by swarms of heroes/myth units, you could only build one, and it could not be transported by boats or rocs.

One of my favorite maps in this game was a large collection of islands. When I teched up to the titan, I could only build one and it could only be on 1 island. This forced an interesting decision, to build it on my island, thus gaining a massive defensive advantage, or risk trying to build it on my opponents island, which was a high risk, but game- winning move if done properly.

This is sort of how I envision any Super-Unit (not structure with utility ie. unit cannon). Limited in number, and unable to be transported between planets. This fits in with the lore easily, obviously after millenia of conflict, many of these types of units are available, but their usefullness is limited, and thus units like the peewee have not been obseleted by units with massive AoE cannons, etc. We have to remember that the unique design of PA does make such units possible, an experimental can be very powerful, a useful addition to armies in many situations, and since these units have both pros and cons, they can still be a useful and fun addition to PA, if handled properly.

So a few quick things on super units.

The primary reason we aren't concentrating on them at this point is that they simply are outside of the current budget for the game. Super units are super costly for us to build and would extend the production timeframe of the game unacceptably. They simply have never been in the budget.

From a gameplay perspective I think that they are often difficult to balace. Getting the tradeoff right between usability and cost means that often times you are either forced to use them because they dominate or that using them is suboptimal. Overall I don't have a huge objection to "traditional" super units and I'm sure we'll get around to including some. BTW I don't consider a large mech to be a super unit. Super units generally have to have something special about them and often present unique challenges in implementation. Doing a krogoth type unit is a definitely early possibility, I just don't want to promise this stuff until the base game is playable and fun.

Now let me counter the idea of super units with the idea of MEGA units. In PA modifying the environment and using it as a weapon creates a completely new class of units. Building engines on an asteroid to move it around is one example. Another is leftover battle stations that can in some cases be reactivated. There maybe others!

tl;dr
- super units are super expensive to make
- big mechs are cool and I'm sure we'll have some bigger units to make people happy
- Mega units are coming and you've never seen anything like it