Super Units as Exo-suit

You can say it, but that doesn't mean it's true.

We know next to nothing about interplanetary transport, and I think it's hard to say there is any 'regular' unit based alternative for that.

It also doesn't mean it's wrong, I just don't see the point to making a super unit-based exosuit to "allow me" to use my commander offensively when I'll already have plenty of factories spewing out units that can do the same, more optimally(Via composition) and just over all be much more flexible.

Mike

I would think the idea is not to have one replace the other, but to use both together?

have one compliment the other, and considering that the super unit/exo-suit thing has no set ideas on what could be done it doesn't even mean that we have to follow the normal rules of what a super unit is.

The exo-suit could be more of a mobile repair unit, firing multiple repair beams to keep your forces alive and giving the commander an enhanced building speed.

The idea is vague, and really we are here just to throw ideas at the board to see what sticks.

That's a possibility, but detailed balancing like that is difficult to call without a better understanding of the mechanics. "vulnerability to sniping" In particular is really hard to gauge without actually playing the game. It applies to everything from artillery to aircraft to nukes.

The simple way to phrase it is that there should be no easy way for a player to guarantee a suited-commander kill in a typical confrontation between two armies, where the commander stays with his own forces. He's a big target, and if simply putting on the suit is suicide, there is no point.
However, if the commander moves too far forward, or his army moves into a trap where the opposing army has a terrain or numbers advantage, the suit shouldn't save him.

The base idea we are looking at for an offensive suit is the ability for the commander to contribute in a fight as a good, effective unit, without inevitable instant death from long-range enemy focus-fire. To enable strategic victories with fewer losses, not to turn the tide of a losing battle.

Well said sethna. Explained it better than I did :lol:

I applied it to tanks, with about the same validity. Difference is we know what the general tradeoff principle will be for tanks vs bots, so we're fine with it (sacrifice in the other direction as the suit; lose combat efficiency for deployment speed and flexibility). Now, please consider our similar arguments.

Well, then it's possible you may never use it, but this thread gives plenty of evidence that not everyone agrees, and that has a very interesting outcome:

It doesn't just change your personal options, it changes those of your opponent.

Sometimes you'll need to hunt down an enemy commander jumping from world to world to world, and sometimes you'll know exactly where the enemy commander is, looming on the horizon in a big fancy suit, but need to bait a trap to make it vulnerable. Or possibly, you feign a full-scale war to keep the enemy commander suited-up and planetside, then you discreetly bring down an asteroid while that big old commander is a looong way from home (and the nearest orbital factory).

Other players will want to explore the option even if you don't, and their different approaches to using the commander makes your game more diverse and interesting.

SETHNA FOR PRESIDENT

(really, if i had anything more substantive to add than that, i would, but you said it all)

sethna - you sir, have the conn

I'm not one for hero worship.

Not actually counter-intuitive to one of my play styles at all. When you could upgrade the Commander to become a beast in SupCom FA, I was all about using him to teleport all over the map and set up dangerous proxy-bases and resource outposts before the enemy could react.

That set a different tone. My commander was a unit that caused fits of giggles... it was a way to express my inner Loki.

But once I saw that the Commander was a humorous unit, rather than one that needed my protection, the tonal whiplash stopped me playing SupCom for a while.

---

It seems my posts, no matter how I try to word them, come off as overly antagonistic.
Not really my intention :?

I guess the antagonism we see is in the fact that your position seems to be that the commander can only be a unit which starts the war but has no place in it except as a prize :? No real compromise can be reached that way and one person will be let down.

Sethna makes some very good points. However, everything he talks about can be done without an extra suit. In fact, that was the entire point behind the abilities proposed for a Comm. They cover a wide array of early game defense options, mid game survival options, and a touch of game ending awesome.

Sooooo...

What's the point of the suit again? All the good points have already been taken.

I'll agree that it doesn't cover some kind of missing gap in the needed ability's for the game.

But that never was the point right? Weren't they supposed to brake stalemates?

A stalemate exists because you can't kill the Commander. Funnily enough, the ability angle solves that part too. Comm powers are directly linked to fragile and volatile infrastructure. Destroy the infrastructure, bask in the collateral damage, and then kill the Comm with a rock or something. Or use the rock first thing. Or do an ambush, some kind of air snipe, or one of hundreds of other ways that a Comm can be killed by superior numbers. Honestly, just make sure defenses aren't stupidly OP and it'll be fine.

There's no shortage of other weapons that can break a stalemate. Asteroids are the major one, as KEWing planets is a fine way to change the game's flow. Then there are more minor ones in the form of unit guns, nukes, and arty. And most importantly- NO BASE SHIELDS. It's very easy to deal lasting damage at any time.

Breaking a stalemate by saying "Here's my Comm! Come kill him!" will... technically work. But giant oversized robot solutions are such an overused anime cliche, that it's going to be seen with a sense of suspended gag reflex.

Sounds cool... But it does kinda defeat the purpose of the commander. I'm up for scaling commanders late game, but scaling them into super weapons is counter-intuitive

This is nothing more than a convoluted way to add commander upgrades. Mavor already stated commander upgrades aren't part of the vision of the game.

And please no "only one unit" limits. That's such a lazy, hack way to 'balance' a game. Every RTS game is worse off for it.

This in an interesting idea.
Too bad it degenerate slowly to a big fight between the pro & opponent instead of a more productive discution.
(don't forget, the goal of this forum is not to shape the game the way you want (you are probably not in the dev or conception team, so be realist, your very own personnal desires, like mines by the way, are worth jack), but to help the dev to make it the best possible for everybody).
We all want to make this game better, but don't forget that the final choice will always - ALWAYS - be the devs choice

After this little moral lesson (argl, i suddently feel old writing that), my point of view on the topic.

I think the Mega-exo-suit is a nice idea, but should be carefully implemented.

Let's see the little analysis I made in my mind.
The Commander is the unit that has the most global potential in your army :
- best constructor
- D-gun (OneHitKill weapon, do not forget it)
- you loose it : the end

Like some already said, it is pretty powerful at the start, but past a certain point of the game, he became totally useless in combat and must be hidden somewere safe (my precccciooouuusss).
A little like the collectors that keep their toys in the riginal case and never touch it.
I understand their point of view, but always found sad to have a great toy but never use it and keep it a jewel case.

Now with the exo-suit idea, we can somewhat content everybody, but there must be a trade-off.

=> What if the exo-suit is not a raw upgrade of the Commander (that mean that it will not make it better on every aspect), but rather a "strategic choice" ?

Keep the Commander out of the exo-suit :
- it's your best construction unit available, giving you some ressources and speeding up drastically your production capabilities.
- One Hit Kill weapon available (D-gun)
- Anything else that the Commander have for itself (like invisibility in TA...)

Put it in the exo-suit :
- Commander will loose all it's production capabilities (no more construction or assist) and the ressources he produce passively are now used to "maintain" the use of the suit
- no more D-gun (remember, it's an ultimate universal OHK weapon !)
- in exchange, you gain a super unit with some great capabilities (better resistance, great firepower or any good idea that can pop in a designer's head)
=> you can bring it to the front line to help breaking an insane turtle, or to add a psychological impact on the attack (The King shoooting "Chaaaaaarrrggeee !!!" to his soldiers) or whatever you want.
- you need an emergency repair / production / construction / escape plan ? Take it out of the suit and voilà, back to the normal somewhat fragile super constructor !

=> Results :
- no more mega-unit only battles (you only have one Commander)
- as it would probably have a great cost (time & ressources), can not be spammed
- you "sacrifice" something (production) to get something else (offence), so no jack-of-all-trade


And now, we can complement the idea with an other feature : an emergency eject button that became available if the exo-suit is too damaged
=> your commander is ejected from the suit
=> the suit is destroyed

Possible gameplay around the destruction of the suit :
- what you gain : you saved your a**
- what you loose : obviously all the invested ressources in the exo-suit
- what the ennemy gain : salvage the suit, jackpot !

Around Commander ejection : Commander is ejected and dropped in a random place on the map after a few secs (10-30secs, 1 min ? Don't know, the idea is to penalize you by "disabling" the Commander for a little while, but not too long, as this could not be used as a stinky cheating tactic)
- what you loose by ejecting your Commander : it is dropped probably far from your base, now you have to bring it back to safety. And fast (you played Cow-boy ? Payback time).
- what your ennemy gain by forcing you to eject : Hunting season is open !

Of course, all of this is a simple proposale, but maybe it's worth to take a look


Now let's push the concept a little more and add a little dreaming to it : Enable a few different exo-suits !
- one or more Bot Exo-suit for terrestrial combat (super Anti-Air, mobile artillery, mobile nuke, Mega-tank...)
- one or more SHIP Exo-suit for water combat (Super long range battleship, super sub-marine...)
- one or more AERIAL Exo-suit for aerial situation (mega bomber, super air-fighter...)

This could add some great tactical variety (what should i do ? Put a great emphasis on production, but having less fire-power ? Or Creating an Exo-suit to have more punch, but weaking my production ?)

Almost finally, I have thinked about a few potential response to the people that do not like the idea (they are present and should be heard too).
- Commander Customisation for early backer no more visible.
=> could maybe be avoided by making a part of the Exo-suit transluside, so you can still see the Commander once he is inside (but please be constructive and don't bullsh** me with lore like "But glass is less resistant than Metal !" Lore is here to help the game, not to limit it )
- the Commander is me ! I don't want to put him in danger !
=> Don't use the exo-suit, and use your increased production capabilities to destroy the menace before it can reach you !
- i like Hide & seek ! This big bot is non-sence !
=> Same as above, don't use it, and take advantage of your inreased production to crush your ennemies !


Final note to rcix :
You already started it, but add in you first post the good ideas that were presented AND (this is very important) the arguments of the people that don't like the concept.
It could seems stupid to complement you post with data that is not going to your side, but even if you think your idea is great, it's not universal. Seeing how nanolathe & knight participate, it seems clear : they do not want something like this. But knowing why they don't like the idea can maybe help to modify it in a way they will accept.
And right now, i'm pretty sure no devs will check and follow the topic. The first 7-8 pages are some kind of personnal war (sethna tried to cool of a little the minds, Thanks man !), some good info is present but it is hard to find.
Ease the work : if the poll & discussion results are easly accessible, Devs are far more likely to check it and consider the ideas !
(Nooo, an other "moral" lesson ! I feel very very old now )

Let me pose a hypothetical here;

Lets say that this Exo-Suit was balanced... completely. The trade-off in power to utility was flawless.

I would still oppose this Suit, because it alters the tone of the game.

What do you say to the issue of a change in tone?

If done properly, the change in tone would be optional, and relatively minor.

I was not proposing that the suit make the commander genuinely harder to kill (I stated that it would probably be a riskier option than not using it), but only that it change the strategy needed to kill the commander.

If your primary concern is that your commander will 'feel' more invincible or unstoppable, you won't have any problems with several (nay, most) of the proposed implementations of this idea. That's not the intent, nor the effect.

The point is to always keep the option of using the commander on the front-lines a delicate and dangerous affair, rather than it eventually being a non-option altogether. It will always be a dangerous option, and any player who wants above all else to keep their commander alive, probably won't use it.

For them, it will mainly be a mechanic to keep their opponent's commander less predictable over the course of any given game.

Please avoid using the phrase, 'nothing more' without careful consideration. It's an easy statement to make, and a far more difficult one to prove or even find strong evidence for.

Having the upgrades be temporary and easily destroyed when not in use changes the way a player will look at them. The 'tone' if you will. The suit would be different from other upgrades because there are ways to force a commander to abandon it or die. A scenario which will almost certainly occur in any game where the suit doesn't get the commander killed first through the increased risk of sometimes being where the fighting is.

The suit is intended to be a scary option, for the more gung-ho commanders who want to feel courageous. 'Playing Loki', as Nanolathe put it, isn't brave. If the commander is ever laughing, the suit is too powerful. I was assuming that this option would never go that far, to protect the tone of the game. A commander should be terrified of their own suit, and those who use it do so out of an even stronger sense of responsibility, or perhaps because of the guilt of always hiding behind its allies. Not to feel invincible or all-powerful.

In addition (not because), it will always, always have the drawback, that eventually, the commander needs to get out of the suit or die. Planets will get destroyed in a typical game. The suit cannot leave the planet it's built on. When that happens (not if), the commander will be just as vulnerable as any other and more, as it's likely the bail-out means the now extremely-vulnerable commander is right where the enemy wants it, and the commander knows that, too. All of the downsides of both options with none of the upsides, during a mad rush to get off-world.

By your logic, the commander shouldn't exist at all. It has an "only one unit" limit. The commander is a fundamental part of the game design, and one which is already singled-out by the mechanics, and the lore/tone of the game.

The commanders act as the brains behind their conflicting armies, but they also act as the hearts. Their emotions are what drive the conflicts, and because of that, different commanders should behave differently and have different priorities.

Having multiple approaches available to the commander only strengthens that tone, and if done properly, won't change the simple fact that the commander always feels vulnerable and afraid. It will only change how the commander can choose to respond to those emotions which come to any mortal in such a position of risk and responsibility.

I'd say a change in tone is not an issue. I think the idea is interesting but i have my reservations on how it could be implemented to really be worth the while. As you said it's a departure from the classic TA formula, though i'd argue that shifting the whole thing to multiple planets is a bigger jump.
To pick up your hyperbole: if it was implemented and perfectly balanced then where's the problem? I could understand if you were afraid about unsuccessful implementation, but what ever your reason is, if it has nothing to do with gameplay, i'd say it's not valid in this context.

Normally i'd just say they should try it out and see if it works. But that's kind of hard with something that would be quite the commitment design wise, so a part of me wants them to play save and deliver a game that i know will be great. But another part would like them to take risks like this and potentially deliver an even greater game...

And I'd say otherwise.

I've already explained my reasons for why changing gameplay has an affect on tone earlier in this thread.

Pardon me, but i have some questions for you.
What is the "tone" of the game ?
How do you decide what is in the tone of the game or not ?

Devs are so early in the developement process that i'm not even sure we can say that the game "exist" yet.

Your ideas are yours and that's all, don't write like your concept of the game is the Table Of Truth.

For now, the only ones that can say that an idea is in the tone of the game or not are the Devs.
Not me, not you. The Devs.

@bobucles
Yes, the "abilites" could cover the field of the Exo-suit, but they are not so impressive
But i do not remember seens anything about that except the mention of their future existence in a live stream. This list is a recapitulation or a kind of implementation wish ?
I think I wouldn't like to see that kind of abilities. They feel like the Commander upgrade of Sup-Comm, but except of having to choose them during the game, you choose to start with.
I must confess that i have no substitute to propose, but i'll give it a try when i have time