Suggestion: Ice Traps, Skill Drain, and Scramblers

What, that the sniper needs an I win button (which cancels charges) just incase someone dodges his three skill draining, headshot guaranteeing snare traps? Or do you think it is overpowered?

I'd disagree with him having the worst juice, simply because a juiced sniper vs a downed money ball is a game ender on 3 of the 4 maps in the game currently, since the sniper can hit the money ball from very safe positions. I'd say the support's juice is by far the worst (but none of them are terrible by any means). His low health is a non issue in these cases, because he never needs to be near the ball.

So the many people who abandon the tank don't do it because of a hard learning curve, they do it because they refuse to improve. But for the sniper, it would be because we made it too difficult for the average player? I think people refusing to improve would be the root of this "problem", but really, lets face it: pretty much everyone has a "main" or goto class or two/three, despite how adept they are with the others.

And lets also face it: we could make the sniper the most difficult class in the game (how ever you measure that) and people would still play it despite how horribly they did. I don't think you need to look any further than the endless supply of terrible assassins who attempt to face stab a tank over and over and over and over again to understand that.

If your argument is because of the "twitch" aiming factor, I think you seriously misunderstand what skills you need to effectively play the tank. He takes just as much twitch aiming as the sniper does with the rail gun, without any sort of aid from a scope or AoE damage by shooting targets in the general vicinity of his actual target. Product grenade requires a tremendous amount of twitch aiming, timing, and is not an instant hit projectile like the sniper rifle. In addition to this, he has to manage the "utility" style game play that assassins employ in clearing bot lanes/turrets, and generally getting very close to bots/pros to deal most of his damage. He has to do all of this while avoiding the huge black hole of effective range known as "mid-range", where he is easy prey for at least half of the classes in the game.

I totally leave room for the possibility that my suggestion for buffing scramblers has the possibility to be OP, but it would be EXTREMELY poor game design for any developer to say "damn, this guy is strong, we need to make his bots virtually useless to compensate."

Also, you clearly did not understand my points about why the devs would not change these things. I wasn't saying they were arguments that I believed in, I was stating them as a possibility as to why they would not change, and you just completely ignored that.

Really wish i could, REALLY wish i could, one kill via scrambler should be a protag XD

Honestly I dont know how often YOU play a tank, but since most snipers shoot through the wall, the auto aim screws us more than it helps us in that aspect. Auto aim helps any and every class but I think the tank gets screwed over more in tank vs sniper since it follows him through the point in the wall you cant hit him. This jerking aim also sometimes throws off my product grenade angle, not like I wont get it back in 8-10 seconds, but they will have regenerated health by then, which can also be extremely frustrating.

I don't know about this hudson, but the Sniper has a low rate of health to start with, it's possibly fine the way it is. The only way i see this working is if he gets a health buff, while recieving a juice nerf, after all, he gains juice way too fast. Although, don't get me wrong i love Sniper but i really don't feel like a sniper juicing every 2 minutes now.

If you stated that and I completely missed it, please quote it and you will have my apologies. I could not find it in the two times I re-skimmed through the thread again, and I want to get back to playing MNC.

This comment has inspired the following question I would like those who oppose this idea to answer:

Why as a Sniper, do you feel you NEED the skill drain on your traps to be a viable class? (As opposed to only a 3-5 second snare?)

How did you miss that?

Oh, and use your scramblers on the side of your jackbot. And I don't see how spawning one and traveling with it isn't a time to use it? If a sniper is going to push a lane, then he most certainly needs a walking skill drain with him. I'm not saying you should do this that often, which is why the bot is not that good. However, it is not useless. And you may be right, they may buff them in an upcoming patch. My point, that you so kindly IGNORED, stated that I believed that they decided underpowered was the way to go.

I don't know how you could even begin to argue that Tank's learning curve is a twitch skill intensive as the sniper's. Thats not to say there isn't also a learning curve, but it is much more dependent on when to use skills, how to move around, and how to effectively switch guns at different ranges. The rest of the sniper's arsenal cannot carry him at all, and the sniper rifle is the most aim intensive weapon, especially if you are lowering or removing AOE. You cannot argue otherwise. Well, you could try, and be wrong.

Overall, it seems like you have some grudge to bear and were willfully misrepresenting my argument, which I find slightly humorous. You do realize that no matter how much you try to twist the words I wrote (such as saying there is only a learning curve for twitch skill), its hard to argue with something I did not say.

Hey, Hudson. Just wanna mention that to cancel charges and lunges, you need really good timing.

Like... ridiculously awesome timing.

Any time I've ever grappled someone charging was a fluke.

Not to be a viable class. On the other hand, why do you feel the skill drain needs to not be on them at level 3? Its not as if the skill drain guarantees death anymore than being frozen does. I feel like it is something useful, so that if I am playing as sniper, and I am not around when my trap goes off, there is a somewhat lasting effect.

Obvious statement is obvious.

Obvious statement is also obvious. I did not address either of these because I was attempting to have a discussion with the active forum community about these issues. I don't feel the need to preface such a discussion with "now i know you have much more to consider than my opinion and the opinions of others who post in this thread." This is already tedious enough.

Actually, I did not. I even left you an entire reply around it, which you basically spawned our whole hotshots vs iceman quote tree that I'm sure everyone is enjoying reading.

So instead of useless, I'll say practically useless. I'll say its the worst possible thing the sniper could ever spend money all. Seriously, even doing this, how many times has the scrambler done anything other than give the other team extra cash. Most of us can probably count on one hand where we witnessed them do something beneficial, or even witness one of those "scramber kills" of urban legend. Okay, yes, in the most isolated and rare of circumstances, they help. The have little practical use overall, even compared to buzzers.

You confuse "not agreeing with you" and "ignoring you." I already stated that I believe it to be poor game design to make the sniper bots (practically) useless because the rest of the features of the class are too strong, and I don't think uber intentionally wanted Scramblers to be the black sheep of the bot family. You stated that you believed that they purposely made them underpowered. I did not respond to this, because NEITHER of us have anything to back up our opinions, and I don't like to think that uber purposely tried to make a crappy bot. If I did respond to it, it would pretty much be: I don't agree with you. Neither one of us made a burden shifting statement there. We simply have different opinions.

The tank's rail gun is the only thing i'm arguing is twitch about him. I brought up the sniper skills because you started listing the tank's skills in an effort to illustrate that the tank had more utility/movement/crowd control based gameplay than the "twitch" sniper, and I thought it was a load of bull considering how strong pretty much all of the sniper's skills were in addition to his twitch based rifle. They are certainly comparable.

Funny you would say that I'm the one twisting words, as I never said "there is only a learning curve for twitch skill." In fact, let us revisit:

"Skill Curve" argument is referring to the argument that slightly increasing the difficulty of the sniper class would make it unplayable. Recall that I countered this by saying that doing well is hardly required for a class to be played, and pointed to the example of all of the terrible assassins that we see every other game. This is the counter to the "skill curve" argument. You then said that it may not apply to assassins because they are so different from snipers and don't have to aim as much as the sniper.

Let me change one thing about my statement:

So basically, the "skill curve" argument only applies to twitch aiming classes? (question mark)

See the original post of the thread if you were honestly asking that question.

If you are still confused:

-Snare (alone) = Likely Death, barring a clutch use of a limited number of skills in the game.
-Skill Drain (alone) = Annoying, possible cause of death, but ability to simply retreat

-Snare + Skill Drain: Certain Death with no escape without serious error on the part of the sniper.

I'm not gonna quote because it would be an enormous wall of text.

While you point out that it is quite obvious that Uber has no obligation nor need to look at our suggestions and change things based on our grievances, I felt it was relevant in this case because of the nature of the sniper class, and people still playing them with a nerf. I guess it goes without saying that most complaints will not be addressed, but I felt there was an especially strong reason this one would not.

When I was referring to the difference between why people play Assassin and why the dynamic might not be the same as with Sniper, I wasn't just referring to twitch skills, although that certainly could be a factor. I'm sure no one wants to continue playing sniper if they face another sniper who just completely keeps destroying them, or just cannot kill anyone. I think I also meant the ability to simply run around real fast and not have to be patient at all. I know Assassins don't have to play this way, but its just the feeling I get when I see a lot of bad Assassins just mindlessly chasing people. I could be wrong, but I feel like there are differences in why certain people play certain classes.

And previously I had just taken your comment without the question mark as you interpreting my words, which is why I felt you were being disingenuous.

And in the completely separate post, I was just being facetious given your open ended question, and reversing the one word. It sort of felt like a leading question, which if you did not intend, I apologize.

@Hudson

I really like the idea of tweaking the ice traps. Lvl 3 pretty much equals death.

I know its an open can of worms I'm touching but, the snipers learning curve isn't close to that of a tank and/or assassin. Not even a little. lol

The snipers a fairly easy class to pick up. Frozen+non-skilled+non-grapple+immobile enemies are pretty easy to kill for a super grappling sniper with exploding bullets that don't have to hit you to kill you. lol

In the right hands he's one of, if not the most difficult class to counter.

In the wrong hands, just like any class, he's a free kill.

woah, hudson. it's almost like you go to law school or something.

+1 to hudson. when played correctly, the sniper is one of the most difficult classes to kill up close.. and it's rather obnoxious to think that i, as a support, will have no way to even deter said sniper from killing me whilst i'm frozen. the skill drain makes it so i can't even lob an airstrike off to move him out of sight of my forehead.

from what i've seen (in general, of course) is that snipers generally play a 'team deathmatch' style of play. if anything, this suggestion would promote a more suitable approach to the average sniper's play style. most players underestimate the importance of a steady/diverse flow of bots in the lanes. i honestly wouldn't even consider such a suggestion a nerf. any sniper should still be perfectly able to hit the critical spots on a frozen pro to get a kill off before they need to worry.

wonderful idea, in mah opinion. though, any suggestion that promotes team-oriented play is wonderful to me.

I'm going to avoid all the flamebaiting and netdrama and speak some truth.

Enemy pro traps make a rather annoying sound along with being visible. If you fly at it, guns blazing w/o destroying it, you forfeit your life. You know who's ice traps I fall for, none. I play Gunner as well, and I just never fall for an ice trap. It might as well 1HKO you b/c if you fall for my ice trap, u're as good as dead.

My point; look before you leap or taste lead.

Guess you missed the point of the thread.

Ice traps should not be 100% certain death
You have stepped into traps, I'll never believe that you have never stepped into a single trap.

Traps should give the sniper the advantage, not completely and utterly cripple the enemy in every possible aspect.

Can someone list the weapons/skills that will destroy ice traps? I honestly don't know how many classes are even capable of killing them.

There is also the issue of snipers throwing down traps while you are advancing/skirmishing, which are extremely hard to avoid due to their snare AoE being larger than their activation AoE, which means your bots will get you snared if you travel with them, and the snare procs multiple times during its duration rather than being a one and done deal. The traps are actually at their most dangerous when used this way, because they completely shut down pushes. They can also chain frost an area (throw another ice trap right as the first snare begins) to double the already ridiculous AoE snare duration. It's probably the best anti juice mechanism in the game.

The skill drain snare traps let you only rely on your primary/secondary weapon without mobility, which would arguably be okay, except the sniper has the quickest "Time to Kill" weapon that has unlimited range. This means you WON'T be winning any heads up gun fights against a half decent sniper, since every ranged weapon in the game kills slower than the sniper rifle's headshot, and ice traps remove all of the difficulty of getting such a headshot, while also draining any possible clutch counters the classes could use to come out alive (blinds, bombs, deploy, etc).

And as Bolt said, I find it incredibly hard to believe you NEVER "fall" for ice traps (unless you never leave your side of the map, or play against snipers who only ice trap the upper decks of their own base.)

I think he was trying to say that because an enemy has to trigger the trap, and traps can be seen and heard, that they are not OP. To a certain extent he is right. I would like it more if you were not allowed to camp an enemies spawn with them, but that has less to do with the traps themselves and more to do with the ability to place them up in a base.

Greg. I have no idea how eliminating skill drain would try and force sniper's to play less "TDM style." You point out that when played correctly, sniper is one of the most difficult classes to kill up close. I'm fairly certain you mean that it is difficult to get up close to kill him. I would take any class against him up close with one caveat, the Assassin is unseen. Otherwise it is a coin flip to see who can lunge+grapple vs grapple first. Also, maybe not support if the support is charging him because of his inability to easily avoid ice traps.

DelVega, your little lol's annoy me. Stop writing them. And get better arguments.

And Hudson. If there is one thing I don't like about the Ice Traps it is the larger AoE after explosion. It allows dumb team mates to run in and set them off, ensnaring you as well even though you knew the trap was there and you were avoiding it. I think I posted in a different thread about this being a theme of the game though, where things have a larger range after you enter their range (turrets, hurt gun, traps). And anything anti-juice I am ok with.

Since this argument is making no headway, how about we look at possible compromises. I'm not sure if this is plausible under their system, but what if Lvl 3 Traps randomly drained 1 of 3 the activated skills and maybe held it at zero until the trap ended?

Assault bomb and grenade launcher both destroy traps. I don't get snared too often, but it does happen. Saying that you have never been trapped is laughable. I agree that the skill drain is just too much. Even if you manage to get free from the trap, you are still crippled for at least 4 secs until your skills come back. Even the worst snipers will have you pushing daisies in that amount of time.