Suggestion for the Vanguards

I find it amazing how much better this idea sounds if you change the idea's name from 'roundup' to 'newsletter'. And I have to admit, it does make it sound a lot more professional. Hopefully that is what it will be.

The very fact that you guys have a badge does mean you have power and influence. You also have a lot more influence with Uber, even more influence than people who are more active in the community.

You can't edit a person's post on the forum, but everything the Vanguard says by default is true and infallible unless they state otherwise.

Your badge ads a lot more to your posts than you guys are letting on – especially with new forum members who join a month from now.

You guys can't claim you don't have power. You do have power – it just doesn't manifest in the form of being able to delete a post on the forums.

A group of people composed a letter, one that sought to address the community's concerns over communication with Uber. It just so happened that a lot of the active members of the community voicing their concerns are from the Realm, which is quite a lot larger than any of the other groups in PA.

Neutrino pretty much said, well you've formed this group already why don't we keep it like that for now. Remember we didn't ask for this, we just wanted Uber to work on communication for the whole community to benefit. There was no concerted decision to choose Realm members and we aren't some gang all trying to push some secret agenda for the clan. There are just as many differing opinions on the game and how things should be within Realm members as the rest of the forum-goers.

A couple of names have been thrown around and I wouldn't be too surprised if the next couple of Vanguard members aren't from the Realm. If anything there are so many Realm members in the Vanguards I don't think there's many people left from the Realm that are suitable for the responsibility.

I'm sure you're just concerned about this working well and fairly, but your very aggressive and accusatory tone since this was announced just makes people defensive. If you were more polite about how the Vanguard should let the forum goers know what round-ups the Vanguard send to Uber I'm sure the response would have been much more along the lines of: 'Sure that seems only fair and would only help increase the level of communication so people know that Uber are getting the right information'. This isn't meant to be some secret sect that pulls the strings!

I think y'all are reading tone that I am not trying to convey. I am by no means aggressive or accusatory in this. I'm just a blunt person and y'all are reading tone that I am not intending – which is why I repeatedly talk about how I support the Vanguard and mention how I have been pushing for a vanguard like role for months now.

Although, I have been getting fairly frustrated with the dismissive attitude from many of the Vanguard members.

I posted as much earlier today right here.

To be honest, I'm still surprised that the community is having concerns specifically about US. We didn't make any of the decisions leading up to this. We didn't choose the Format for the group, we didn't choose the initial members, that all was done by the Guys at Uber. Also you'd think if you're really that worried about us lying to Uber one would think you should instead about Uber believing us instead yeah? And I don't see why you'd ever be worried but us lying to the community about the things Uber has said because they'd bust us for doing something so stupid right away.

Mike

I'm not concerned about you lying. I, nor anyone who has voice concerns, ever said lie.

We have voiced concerns about the majority of the members being The Realm (again, this is coming from a Realm member myself), and The Realm pushing their own agenda while suppressing the opinions of the forums.

That is still lying thought. We say we're going to communicate to Uber partly on the basis of the Communities thought and then you know......don't do that it's basically the same thing as lying and Uber will call us out on it. If we were to do something as stupid as try to push for some kind of imaginary "Realm Agenda" Uber would notice and call us out on it.

Mike

And this is exactly what the community is voicing concerns about.

"Don't worry, trust us. We have no reason to lie. Uber will catch us."

Well if Uber will catch you, then that means they're reading every single post on here and the purpose of the Vanguard is completely moot.

I still really do not like how you guys are dismissing the concerns of the community with things like "we don't have an agenda" and "just trust us."

Of course there is an agenda! Each and every person on The Vanguard has their own personal opinions on how the game should be made and subsequently they have their own agenda. Stop claiming you don't have an agenda.

What needs to be apparent is that each individual, and very importantly the large Realm presence, puts aside their personal agenda and pushes the community's agenda forward, hence the call for increased transparency and the continued push back from the community for how The Vanguard is currently set up and operating.

Also, it does not bode well that the organization that is supposed to represent the community is so readily dismissing the community.

So are you saying Uber is going to stop reading the forum? They don't need to read everything all the time, they just need to be current on the topic and I'm sure they'll be putting in the effort to make sure we're all on the level before they actually trust us enough to not check up on us. I doubt we'll have that much of an effect on how much they read, but what we hope to accomplish is making it easier for them to post more often, but we'll see.

You're going to have to explain this one to me. If I was being dismissive, I'd just ignore the comments and focus on developing the program and working with Uber, instead we're doing all we can to answer everyone's questions.

Mike

This actually proves that the existence of the Vanguards is redundant. The whole point is that Vanguards are filtering important information and passing it on to Uber to save them from having to closely watch the forums. This lends itself to abuse. That's a structural problem, I'm not suggesting any of you desire to abuse the position but the fact that it's possible is the concern.

I already addressed this in the post above yours.

Mike

I've been staying quiet, but I feel something needs to be addressed.

1. Uber suggested this Vanguard program, a trial run to help streamline community communication.
   I was rather hesitant at first, but it makes a lot of sense. Uber does read the forums, but getting a "second pair of eyes" on the community is even better.
   Eve has their Council of Stellar Management, I have only ever hard good things about it.
   I decided to give Uber's propsal a fair shake down.
   I was hoping the rest of the community would do the same.
   
   
2. Using language such as "agenda" make it sound like I have some super secret reason to subvert the community voice for my own ends. That's really loaded language.
   It is accusatory in tone and immediately sets the reader on the defensive. It doesn't help anybody.
   And it certainly doesn't help the game to improve.
   You might want to reconsider your level of "tact".
   
   
3. I said this in the other thread.
   
   Brian, I was actually hoping you would help to start to organize the community.
   - Top Questions
   - FAQ
   - Wiki
   
   Instead of immediately attacking Uber's trial program.
   I thought you would embrace this idea and aide to "pushes the community's agenda forward".
   Those were your words.
   
   I thought I would see you to unify the community's top questions.
   I thought you would be all gung-ho to champion raising up a banner to help support this program.
   Not a warbanner to tear down something good.

So here's my personal challenge to you,
Are you going to take up the mantle of leadership to help sort through the community noise?
Perhaps summarize the most important questions for Orbital?
Or start distilling down top requested information on unit roster?
Or what the community has requested for transports?

Well as Uber's new representatives on this forum, you can pass this onto them for me: Picking a group of your favourite people has soured my enthusiasm for your community built game, it should not be this way, if you wanted someone or a group of people to have a presence on the forums to summarise the opinions and desires of the community then you should have hired someone to do that job. Might I suggest you give that person the title of "Community Manager".

I never said they would stop reading the forum.

But they cannot filter through all of the posts without stopping all development. Thus, the Vanguard needs to filter through them.

Since Uber cannot filter through all of the posts, they cannot fully know everything about the Community's intentions.

So the options are simple.

1: Either Uber reads everything and they know everything without the Vanguard, and the Vanguard is redundant.
2: Uber doesn't read everything and doesn't fully know the will of the Community and therefore needs to rely on the Vanguard for insight into what the Community wants. So therefore, what the Vanguard tells Uber has extra weight because Uber is trusting the Vanguard to give a true filter of what the Community wants.

Since the individuals of the Vanguard do have personal agendas that they must put aside when relaying the will of the community, transparency is key.

Besides, all of the steps for increasing transparency are steps that should be taken anyways to increase the clarity and quality of communication between Uber and the Community filtered through the Vanguard.

Remember. I am advocating FOR the Vanguard and have been voicing my concerns about all these things for months – but my signature wasn't included in the top secret letter.

I don't understand why the Vanguard is pushing back so hard against the community and waving aside all the concerns – which does nothing but increase the concerns about the Vanguard.

The Community has valid concerns. Your dismissals illustrate the very things we are concerned about.

Again. This is all coming from someone who is for the Vanguard, who is very active in the community (more active than many of the Vanguard members), and who is even apart of The Realm.

Funny you should bring up the Eve council. I used to be an avid Eve player. I was damn good and very influential amongst my alliance. The whole alliance fell apart after I stopped playing eve. The Eve council is known for pushing the agendas of the mega alliances and all of the members of the council are in the council because they have the backing of their mega alliance.

You forget that I have been answering every single question from new forum members for months. I built from the ground up and maintain the only PA fan site. I wrote the FAQ that is currently stickied. I wrote every single word in the largest and most accurate PA wiki. I patrol the bug tracker regularly. I post regularly on the PA subreddit and answer many questions from new players and prospective PA buyers.

You guys keep in misinterpreting and ignoring much of what I am saying.

I am FOR the Vanguard. Every post on here concerning the Vanguard has been to fix and improve the issues with the Vanguard. I have repeatedly said I am for the Vanguard. I have been pushing to deal with the very concerns that the Vanguard raised in their letter for months. I have volunteered to step up in the community and do the very thing the Vanguard is doing.

I am NOT trying to tear down the Vanguard.

In fact, I seem to be one of the few people doing the Vanguard's job, which is to bring forward the concerns of the Community (which happen to be about the Vanguard) and not dismiss the Community's ideas because you disagree with them.

I AM FOR THE VANGUARD.

Every post about the Vanguard is an attempt to improve it, the community, and the game itself.

I have been doing these types of things since before the Vanguard was formed.

I think your post's and many of the other community post have already started doing that

"My opinion" - Without the communities input it would not be a community thing .

It's not for me to decide of course, but Brian sounds like a pretty cool guy. I say he be put in the Vanguard and work through the issues he's named internally.

Brian the stuff you say is true. What they were trying to get through to you earlier in the thread is that the word "agenda" generally has a very negative connotation. One that tends to throw people into a defensive state of mind. Even with all of the "I AM FOR THE VANGUARD" thrown throughout it makes your posts seem extremely negative. Even if they are meant as constructive criticism.

This sounds like 'Tone Policing', which means a statement is disregarded because of the way it is presented, not because of it's content.

SOMETIMES SO IS TYPING IN ALL CAPS.