spawn killing?

Ok I am convinced southsidesox24 is a Hudson troll. All you do is beat around the bush. He asked simple questions that deserve simple answers.

Imo, the answer to all of his questions is "Not really."

Also spawn camping has EVERYTHING to do with map control.

Deadstretch, if you knew what irony was, you would still be giggling at your response, just as I am right now.

If you never got spawn camped in CoD, you never played any organized teams. Imagine MNC spawning with no impenetrable shield, and you die in 3 shots.

Sox, I underlined my very clear answer to the one question you posed. I made it clear I wanted a context for why you were asking such a question.

How does "I find spawn camping to likely bring fun to the game for those that do it, and likely less fun for those experience it," NOT answer your question? It has been answered. Give me the context now.

I'm curious as to WHY spawn camping should live and die by the fun factor. Your whole premise seems to boil down to:

-Being Spawn Camped is not fun
-Things that are not fun will make it less likely that people will play the game
-Things that are less likely to make people that play the game should be modified/removed

My goal in asking these questions is to figure out: does this principle only apply to spawn camping for the purpose of attempting to win an argument, or does it consistently apply across the other many available aspects and tactics in the game?

If you do distinguish between everything I listed and spawn camping, tell me WHY.

Yes they are different, but you fail to explain why the difference is significant. IE: Why should we NOT extend this "fun" analysis to them?

My goal is to illustrate that simply saying something is or is not "fun" is not reason alone to include or exclude something from the game. Before you say you understand this, remember that you have LIMITED your inquiry to "is it fun or not" in the past few posts.


If you think there was no spawn camping in any of the past 3 Cod games, I really don't know what to say.

In MW2 alone: CTF and Demolition had ridiculously easy spawn points to control, Domination is basically an entire game based around spawn trapping, TDM was somewhat manipulatable, and Ground war's spawn system could not handle the player base and gave retarded spawns in corners of the maps in full view of snipers, and this is all without considering the spawn tubes on 95% of the SnD maps.

Saying the COD series does not have spawn killing issues is pushing me towards "troll" as well. That or just wildly ignorant.

Oh, and LOL @ map control not having any thing to do with spawn killing.

You don't even need organized teams in MW2.

Seriously Sox, did you play the multi-player part of these games?

Or are you just afraid that if you recognize that these games have spawn killing, your whole "spawn killing makes people quit playing games completely" argument becomes a lot less persuasive than it already is?

Is not fun, you know?

yeah, ask someone who went from demolition (where you respawn), to search and destroy (you only have one spawn and one life), to MNC (where you do not get the ****ing ump45)

in CoD, spawn killing is an inside joke everyone knows. its an unspoken path of the samurai. i guess its the same with good tdm-style players on c&c renegade, to get into the building and spawnkill with the hotwire pistol (camping the spawn with a pistol was hard, getting in with a hotwire was hard, the reward was being able to plant c4 on their MASTER CONTROL TERMINAL, which completely instantly destroys the building)

OMG!!! i got it! look, everyone listen to this for a moment. c&c WAS different in spawning in ONE way. on c&c renegade there were a barracks, war-factory, advanced guard tower, refinery, and power plant. you could spawn in ANY building at random. maybe there should be two floors of the spawn room and/or two spawn buildings!

or at least it should be considered in new maps, if that is uberent's will to make new maps in the future. or considered if uberent's will is to make a sequel.

and i suppose jump-pads taking you out the spawn room to one of the back walls would work. or a tunnel leading around to the other side of the moneyball. but generally i am for spreading out the spawn escapes OR leaving it as it is.

because i still believe if you get spawn-trapped, its because your turrets got destroyed. all you can do is fight back until you lose. its all you could do in other games.

Up front, sorry about the length, but try to bear with me.

As you pointed out, everything in this game should be based around fun. However, each thing does not arrive at the same point. This is the idea of context. What context do these things happen in? I don't understand how in the world you think the onus is on me to prove how these things are different. You introduced them into the argument, the onus is on you to prove how they are the same/similar. You said they were the same. I said they were different, due to context. You ignored this.

And I was not spawn camped at all in the games I listed. Saying "Did you actually play these games?!?!?!" is not related to the topic at hand. You mentioned CTF and Demolition..well, did you notice that those were the game types with the least amount of people playing them? (Except obscure ones, like 3rd person and such). The point is that in CoD, almost 80% of the game types themselves had specific mechanics attempting to avoid spawn camping.

Listen, I really am not trolling. I am trying to make you see that in my estimation, over 90% of the player population will not share the same opinion as you. Everytime you tried to shift the argument to something tangential related, I rebuffed you. This does not make me a troll. Nor am I a troll for disagreeing with you. You were trying to make points. I was pointing out that they were not points related to what I was talking about. You called me a troll.

Oh, and by the way, you did not understand what I was saying when I said "This has nothing to do with map control and everything to do with player behavior and utility added for everyone." Did the whole strawman thing not clue you in? You attempted to frame the question towards what you wanted to talk about, even though it had nothing to do with the point I was making. Yes, Map Control is physically necessary to begin the act of spawn camping. I was not disputing this. However, saying SKILL IS THE PROBLEM is a LOGICAL FALLACY. My argument had nothing to do with this, and I have stated this multiple, multiple, multiple times.

Here, I'll just break down the argument as to how I believe it actually goes. Honestly let me know if I am misrepresenting you.

Me: Spawn Camping is lame. There should be a mechanic to eliminate or combat this in some way, as it lessens the fun for everyone, but especially those new to the game who may potentially not keep playing. We want these people to keep playing because this will lead to many things" a larger forums community, a larger player community, more income for the developers so they can continue to support this game and hopefully make more.
You: Spawn camping is not really lame at all. I actually think it is funny. I don't think more protection should exist because player skill is the deterrent from allowing it to happen. If you have a team of people, you have enough of a chance. If you don't have a team of people, well, either make friends or just take it. If your team is losing and getting spawn camped, well that is their fault.

The problem I have with this is...this is a public game. There is not requirement to have a team before you join. People who would buy this game while knowing no one will get turned off by being spawn camped early on. Maybe to the point of not playing, or not purchasing the full game, and so forth.

So, let me ask you, do the advantages of allowing spawn camping outweigh the advantages of not? I quantify this in fun for everyone involved.

Edited for Clarity

may i just say that we only believe there can be added things to make spawncamping less viable, but there are already things to prevent it, like a spawnroom. depending on definition, you cannot be spawnkilled in this game if you define spawnkill as being killed before you can move during that life. in c&c renegade, this was the way of the warrior. in CoD, its an unspoken objective that the entire teams thrives for without anyone needing a mic.

in this game, the spawnroom makes it to where you can spawn and stand there and even walk around a little bit, and be okay. you can even fire from the doorway of an area completely protecting you from damage. id agree maybe making more spawnrooms to spawn in at random, or making more spread out exits, or a faster way to exit the spawnroom to a farther distance.

but you should not be punished for spawnkilling in any way in my opinion and i believe that is a fair compromise right now. if there were more supporters for more spawnkilling prevention, id agree to kill/fine spawnkillers.

All I have time for is this, will address the rest later:

I DON'T think everything should be based around fun. I was under the impression that YOUR argument relied on how much fun spawn camping brought to the game. The whole point of this entire thing is that looking at fun in a vacuum ONLY for the purpose of addressing the validity of spawn camping seems arbitrary to me.

The onus is on you because I'm not arguing they are the same. They are different. I freely admit that. I want you to tell me why they are so significantly different that we cannot apply the same principles to them that you want to apply to spawn camping. I accept they are factually different, but this tells me nothing about what you perceive as a significant difference.

I want to know how they are significantly different.

Everything I listed involves player death or player inhibitors through loss of control of a character's movement or that character's skills, or losing a game outright. Spawn killing involves player death, player inhibition, and generally losing the game. Clearly you perceive my examples and spawn killing as significantly different, and I want to know HOW.

How is spawn camping so significantly different from the other things I listed, to the point where you won't apply the same analysis?

I never said they should not be judged the same way. This, again, is you clouding the issue. I will quote myself.

Notice, the reason I did not address them is because they are not what the discussion is about. They are separate issues. Bringing them up has nothing to do with how fun spawn camping is. If you were to show how they were the significantly the same, then they would be relevant. However, as an example, the context for a an ice trap is different. It flashes, you can see it on the ground, you can avoid it. Your analogy for spawn camping would be to get a team. However, to avoid one, you move a stick and press buttons in the context of the game. On the other one, you must attempt to make friends with people you may have no urge of talking to, or go outside of the context of the game to get a team. This can be compounded if you are new to the game, and are just getting your first taste of it. The context of why they are not fun and how you solve them are completely different. Just because they are both not fun does not mean they are not fun for the same reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that all status effects cause less fun in MNC (with the exception of the flame dot). However, this has no bearing on what this discussion is, thus why introducing it is just clouding the issue.

The enemy team starts across the map. They are there we are here. You can see them coming and avoid it.

yep, ice trap is there, destroy it and then destroy the sniper.

yep, team is there, destroy them and keep them out of your spawn and perhaps camp them in their own spawn. that avoids spawncamping.

besides, your acting like newbies come from pac-man. any newbie from another fps knows letting their team get to your side of the map means losing. means you walk out to look down a railgun barrel.

makes sense that someone who has played fps would get a fps, and a person who would stay with an fps if they really were a first-time-fps-player would enjoy fps cliches.

All spawn campers should be tied down in a Mexican prison and allowed to have a train run on them.

They should then be drawn and quartered

That is all.

me and my friend always say i am going to jail for spawn trapping people because well you get the point, we destroy them....we try to get the trap just so we can laugh at people as they run out, we let some through then chase them down and lock it down again...its an effective way to win, before you say "KILL MOAR BOTS NOOB!!!!" we obviously do, so our bots can take down the ball....pretty simple.....

How sporting of you.

Does nobody have a sense of fair game anymore? I purposely stay off the Spawn "Ring" of the enemy team...it just seems cheap to camp them there.

Uber if you are reading this here is a suggestion: Electrify the spawn ring so the enemy team cannot walk on it without taking damage - kind of like the tops of some of the walls are set up. This would do much to bypass the pathetic practice of spawn kill farming. You can never eliminate it, its like a bad case of the herpes, its not going anywhere but you can treat the symptoms from time to time.

im sorry but name a game where you can't spawn kill people? its not an easy task most of the time.

Well, Gears of War 2 for one.
There's spawn protection/invincibility.

i can shoot through walls with my railgun, so is that allowed too?

i have been trapped in gears 2 while playing games like king of the hill you respawn, they trap you in there with your captain and your done......