So... the older players were all terrible?

You guys are all equally bad to me. End thread

I carry you in SMNC and MNC your welcome. End thread

If you mean you constantly distract the oppossion by constantly dying allowing me to kill everyone and push onto their moneyball than you are correct sir.

No.

How long ago do you think I played? I've also played with 99% of the "good" MNC population including both those names, and just no. I don't understand how you can even say that. By the time we finally played GP, Sigmar didn't give a ****. He honestly trolled his own team in private matches but it didn't matter because he was just that good.

I remember you complaining about finding Sigmar in pubs all the time but I recall when we found Zatchmo a few times you didn't say anything. Are you thinking or are you just being stubborn for the sake of not wanting to change your stance?

Ghost and Drive Thru were pretty good too.

But I think C4 in action was the best.

He's also a GoW and CoD Sniper specialist.

He absolutely sucked at every class but Sniper though.

A good player who destroys bad teams and doesn't try or care anymore when good teams start popping up, I can buy that!

F5in unfortunately you haven't played with zatchmo in his "prime". I know you've played with him, and "big names" before, but this is a while after you stopped. No offense zatch, but around the time F5in played you weren't much of a thought/worry to me. Now you're constantly the biggest threat on the team when you play.

F5in, sigmar was the best at one point, just like deadeye was one of the best gunners. People do improve over time and now there are multiple people better than deadeye. I give sigmar credit for being the best in that era, but zatchmo's sniper 2-3months ago was easily the best sniping i've seen in this game. I've raged harder at things zatch has done than sigmar. Sig's gotten plenty of good headshots, but zatchmo will get me mid charge, or while being grapple throwed. Def better than MLG, Kckzi, Chron, Shammas etc.. Maybe, just maybe sigmar's accuracy is better, but zatch has landed more sick headshots on me as an assault than anyone else. I know for a fact he plays the sniper/containment role better than him.

All in all, Sigmar > Zatchmo during GP era and before that, Zatchmo > any sniper to play this game once he made that his main class.

The biggest part in all of this too is the evolution of the meta-game from the before and during the GP era till now. The game plays differently and new players can stick to a familar and effective meta game while the old players try to get used to the new play style.

The most overlooked fact in this debate is it means a lot more to be considered good now vs then. Then, if you had a good shot and knew how to effectively juice chain you were good. Now, there are handfuls of those very players who steer away from privates because they can't keep up and don't like the competitiveness that exists now more than ever. Now you need a good shot, good quick decision making, good communication (listening too), proper containment depending on your class, suicide plays to force bad juices, useful juice executions instead of just better stats, holding responsibility for your role in putting the ball down, knowing how to handle breaking and executing spawn traps without juice, etc. to be considered a good or top player now means a lot more than it did then. If you took someone like chollo right now who isn't considered one of the very best, but a solid overall player, he would be a star in the "older players" era, because his experience and private match count is more extensive and versus a much thicker overall caliber of ability

I'll say one thing, once people stepped their game up, my Sniping became less dominant because more people learned how and when to focus down certain players. I can still change the balance of a match, but only rarely, and then the only consistent map I can do it on is Ammo Mule.

Knives and kckzi are just the same. Chron is a host ****.

I also thought that this was funny.

maybe I'm the only one that thinks you're one of the best snipers.

Kckzi + Knives + Shammas can contain, have good accuracy, and are able to work bots.

You're able to do all of that while headshotting me non-stop. Everyone else is a body shot, except for chron's host snipe.

I found sigmar's sniping to be useless in terms of team objective

Shammas > Zatchmo , because Zatchmo rarely uses traps and flakk.

Knives > Zatchmo in terms of bot work because he plays passive and uses explosive rounds.

Chron > Zatchmo in terms of map control and positioning.

Shammas > Zatchmo for ice-traps and flak.

Sigmar > Zatchmo in regards to pure accuracy

Zatchmo > All of them in my eyes.

I would like any of these snipers mentioned (except sigmar) on my team, and appreciate mentions of me (even you whores who stab at my host even tho I do just as good off host! Minus a crazy headshot or two).

But in my opinion Kckzi is just flat out the best sniper. His shot is very under appreciated bc he is not a headshot machine but he DOES NOT miss body shots and coming from someone who plays every class, by far the most annoying to deal with overall. His positioning is always perfect, decision making and use of juicing for ball down pushes are always timed right, and when I play assault we joke about how I never leave him alone, because it is either over half my total attention on Kckzi, or we don't win, period.

Everyone else mentioned definitely deserves being mentioned and round out the best, but no sniper is nearly as affective and consistent as Kckzi

You're a dumbass, stop trolling.


Teapot, I don't know what to tell you. You just admitted that Sigmar has better accuracy, and the other parts of being a sniper aren't even hard.

I don't see how the meta has evolved. How has it? Explain to me, because based on all the posts I'm reading the meta is EXACTLY the same as it was forever ago. Nothing has changed game mechanic-wise, and nothing ever will, because Uber won't update it, which means it's extremely hard for the meta to change AGAIN after it was already stable for so long.

Skills A,B and C teams (still working on other teams).

Team A:

Sniper - Kckzi


:lol:

If you played some private matches with us, you would instantly see how much more different it is.

ok excluding miracle shammas kckzi name 2 players per class who were great back then and what made them great and exactly how they would still stack up vs the current pm regulars.

its easy to have great accuracy when you are on a loaded team in an era where nobody else was good and can sit wherever you want and pick people off, never having to put traps in all the right areas, just around yourself, and many shots later the lone assault who finally gets to you, you occasionally get a headshot. the only times sigmar has played since he was on GP he has done terrible. he has attempted to try, realized he couldnt keep up, then trolled. if your best argument is still "not trying" clearly you are the dumbass, because that excuse is exactly what it is, a poor excuse.

If by stable for you long you mean the once every few week PMs that used to happen back then and the 2-3 matches any teams during that entire GP/Destiny/**** group played. Lets see:

Assault Then: bother the sniper, shoot everything else you see, juice when u can get/buy it, keep the ball down.

Assault Now: All of that plus isolate the tank at every opportunity, go after the support every time the gunner is not watching even if it means getting yourself killed. Go even or negative if it means still having a productive game and creating problems for the other team and opportunities for yourself. Gold RoF is better than Gold Armor. How to properly put the ball down without juice, bomb on turret nub, charge snipers/tanks anything in the base immediately on respawn. As soon as the tank dies with bots coming in make it your MAIN focus bomb the door keep him out of the way at all costs. (last couple sentences never happened back then, it was just buy juice and keep killing until bots get on). Anything called out (assassin spawn killing your bots, assault on your sniper, assault on your tank, ANYTHING, be the total slave of the team, dont just accept the mismatches and simply attempt to start out 4-0 for the sake of natural > purchased juice. Be insanely aggressive, charge into bad situations to make the play, not out of them and try again.

Gunner then: kill the enemy gunner, kill everything else, juice, buy juice.

Gunner now: Deploy and slam come into play without the ability to buy juice, wildman shows what slam3 can do at steel peel very well. PROTECT your support, much more emphasis is placed on killing the support, and many routes have been altered in order to progress up the map and keep your support out of harms way, no more simply im going this way, keep up with me best you can. More responsible for killing enemy turrets with extra pressure on assassins to kill them with juice buying off it is more difficult to clean the emeny base of the sniper, his traps, and a pressured tank sitting around the base in a trapped or near-trapped situation. Players are flat out better than they used to be, aggression with positioning is EVERYTHING. it is no longer a matter of which gunner has better aim, ive seen miracle lose matches to darron because of better play, use, and protection of his support. Telling the support everything they have to and can do with the firebase, as well as when to heal other teammates.

Sniper then: have good aim, put ice traps in spots other than around you.

Sniper now: be whatever your team needs you to be, basically. extra emphasis has been put on awareness and new places to put traps, more people snipe bots to kill assassins than they used to, and snipers are much more aggressive than they used to be with traps QUICKLY in higher traffic areas and into the enemys base as soon as the opportunity arises. ground play with ice traps is much more common and effective at maps like lazor now with play revolving around winning and not stats/juice which means bother the living hell out of the enemy assassin and tank. overall traps are used in more situations than just to catch the gunner, any spot you know an assassin, tank, even assault to hold him still for a second to quickscope or have your gunner kill. even if more people are putting ice traps deep into bases than they used to. this class has not changed as much as others, but the demand for how good you have to be to not lose the game for your team is still relevant.

Tank then: railgun players, especially the gunner, bots, charge when someone is near you, product bots/players accordingly.

Tank now: all this ^ but do not sit back as much, by far. The tank moves as far as the second furtherst player on his team. the demand to keep walls and structures around them in order to play more aggressively and keep in the lanes to bother the enemy assassin as much as possible. The tank is absolutely pivotal in putting the ball on the ground and unless the other team totally screws up their botplay, the tank is just about mandatory to put the ball on the ground getting into the base cleaning new bots asap charging around putting people on their backs and keeping his bots safe, all without being able to buy juice to make it happen. A tank on an aggressive team that goes 10-10-20 can easily be the factor in the win. the first 15+ times you might get killed, but the 16-20th time someone on your team will make that one extra play that enables you to put the ball on the ground.

Assassin then: kill bots, juice players/turrets, get the anni.

Assassin now: much more emphasis on survivability. with extra money in the pockets it is crucial for the assassin to put out at least 12ish juices in a full overtime game, keeping the turrets down at all times. the assassin has the potential to also put up a fair amount of kills compared to the rest of the team bc of the juice accumulation. if turrets are down, you juice the lane and anyone in the way after letting your team be aware of the situation. assassins only juice for kills if that situation does not present itself, or their team desparately needs map control, or if they are stupid. also rebuy/upgrade turrets on respawn if possible, you dont do anything else with the money other than the anni and occasional gremlis (if available). This class like sniper doesnt have alot extra to be aware of, but need to play smarter for sure because of the rise in overall ability from a higher number of players, with much better awareness and communication. grab the support when the opportunity comes, as everyone has extra incentive to kill him nowadays.

Support then: follow the gunner, hack a firebase when you can.

Support now: a tremendous amount of pressure added to watch your back and do everything you can to make yourself a difficult target to kill. you CANNOT put yourself in bad situations or even decent situations, because the enemy assault or assassin will kill you. the difference in a support that is smart enough to follow his gunner and a support that does that but makes himself difficult to kill with smart communication, awareness, and knows WHEN to use the shotgun is a huge difference. a support that locks onto the gunner and constantly looks around for approaching enemies to tell his gunner about and reacts to dying teammates if his gunner can be let go for a second or two makes a great difference. supports use their firebases MUCH more in weird or formerly unusual spots, WITHOUT the need to hack it. any traffic area bots/players does just fine, only to be be hacked if the gunner is ok for a quick couple seconds.


Thats the difference between players then and players now. Could players have done this then? possibly, did they? no. why? they didnt have to, competition wasnt nearly thick enough and juice buying on was an out/compensation to pick up any slack. the biggest difference between then and now is there are more players that can keep up with "top players" in private matches, where back then most people would get lost in translation and just be exploitable and hold the teams back. players exhibit MUCH more of the "now" characteristics and expectations regularly because if they dont, their team will likely lose. without juice buying off there is little room for error and not much other classes can do in terms of compensation for a weak link. this all being said, the demand for each player to fullfill their role and u exercise good communication is much more significant, and not all of these are hard to follow, most can be done without a great amount of "skill", but these regular practices with good/great players creates a thicker more competitive community, which breeds better competition, which causes everyone involved (even the top players) to constantly be improving and needing to keep their playstyles sharp and yet fresh (to avoid predictability).

i dont care who wants to come in here and attempt to defend the "older" players in the class differences of then and now, because the older players did NOT regularly exhibit all of those duties in every pm, and the occasions they did were extremely few, if any, because juice buying was on, and there were not nearly as many good players.

edit: i dont see a single older player reading this, or responding to this, jumping in some games to prove us wrong. just a whole lot of "could have" and "would have"

Amen.

p.s Chron hates my slam 3 Gunnuh on steel peel

lol @ people still trying to get noticed in a dead game