Remove commander Sniping

I'm just trying to get to grips with people's logic here. It just seems people want it the "TA" way, which is totally fine btw.

My question is why are people deciding which units get both air/and ground attack abilities and which do not. Another example, why not put a light lazer on the Bomber so it's not hard countered by fighters? 1 fighter can kill 100000 bombers after all which isn't good right? (playing devils advocate)

Yep agree, the t2 bomber on TA had that that (pheonix/hurricane). was good to have against t1 figthers. would be happy to see it again.

better clarify after i reread my earlier post. Im not one of the guys that wants a like for like carbon copy TA game. i just feel that in that regard TA felt well thought out and would be a suitable model.
Its all personal opinion i understand how others think that an AA gun should be an AA gun and nothing more. all i think of is in WW2 when AA guns were turned into semi-effective anti tank guns etc.

I guess we could talk specifics to death and it won't really make much difference as we haven't got all the units in yet. So I guess I'll just clarify my personal preference in terms of direction.

I believe that gameplay is improved by hard counters because:

1. A player who's good with economy management but not good at scouting could lose to a player who's good at scouting but not so good with economy management.

2. forcing a player to take care of their unit composition rather than just spamming the unit that kills everything will ensure players put more thought into what particular tech they focus on.

3. To ensure T1 units are viable throughout the game, T2 units should still be able to be hard countered (or at least equal strength as) a particular T1 unit.

You're assuming something here; that the aerial killing efficiency of one t1 tank would be equivalent to the killing efficiency of one t1 fighter. Hopefully that won't happen. I believe that they should be able to take on a stray aircraft or 2 to help with survivability. (Maybe 10 t1 tanks to 1 t1 aircraft)

Just my 2c

-Zetta

Agree with oxide. Hardcounter is good for gameplay.

I disagree with oxide. Hard counters are not necessarily good for gameplay. Nor do they make any logical sense in universe either.

Hard counters, push up the learning curve. And that's not always a good thing.

I've been playing supreme commander for years, still a noob.

My opinion could easily be swayed, I'm not militant about the idea. But I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. Would you care to elaborate? Are you saying that IRL weapons are generally multi-purpose and should be reflected as such in the game?

Indeed. Ground AA tanks can fire missiles at other ground targets and at air targets, so why are the missiles used by aircraft only AA? What logical sense does that make?

Planes are just too slow right now. The only problem with tanks shooting planes right now is that it's too easy.

IRL not much logical sense, but gameplay wise I can see some logical sense to it. In the game's current state fighters are the best option to hold of bombers. They don't *need* to attack ground to be useful.

But hey, like you say if the tanks are not able to hit the bombers easily I'd be OK with that. And if the fighters have a ground attack but it's not very effective I'd be OK with that too.

Although until I get to test both scenarios out I'm not sure which I'd prefer.

If you need AA, make AA. What is wrong with that ?

What is the point to give a AA capability to a non-AA units ?

You try to create a "Heath-Robinson machine" (not sure about the expression), instead using common sense.

I am very much against Starcraftian arbitration when it comes to what units can hit what.
Sue me.

If you need AA, build AA. But don't remove the ability for tanks to TRY and shoot aircraft.

The current tracking speed of tanks against aircraft is definitely too much. I completely agree on that point. I do not agree with its total removal however.

Just because this thread is so much fun, let me ask you another question Nano.

Should scampers be allowed to Try and hit planes too? (I forgot what the TA mechanic for this was with pewees).

Peewees could, but their range was almost too short to even reach aircraft flying about at maximum altitude.

Yes. Peewees tried (and failed 99% of the time). That 1% of the time when they killed a Construction plane or a VToL that hovered in place made all the pretty EMG shots peppering the sky worthwhile.

Lordq, you ninja!

If you want to keep tanks trying to shoot aircraft 2 situations :

1 : they do it good, that is stupid.
2 : in order to avoid situation 1, you nerf their AA capabilities so much, that is close to nothing (but they keep trying and sometimes they succeed).

What's the point ? if aircraft attack your tank, you will still loose them if you don't have proper AA.

It is maybe less frustrating, if you think that you still have a chance to kill a airplane... but this is more related to psychology than gameplay.

So if you need AA, make AA.
And if you want to see some fireworks to be less frustrated, i don't mind (but it is useless).

It isn't useless. Tanks not being able to shoot upwards at all is useless.

Yes, if aircraft attack your tanks you will lose your tanks if you don't have proper AA... But the tanks are at least NOT useless if they take out one or two bombers!

A tiny moral victory for the tanks. A tiny moral victory for the player controlling those tanks. A tiny little way to make the player who lost, not feel like he was helpless.

Making the player feel helpless is a BAD thing.

I'm not sure about this one anymore. Think I'll sit on the fence for a while until the game develops some more. I hate to admit it, but I think you may be converting me Nano.. peewees could shoot at air? wtf? Why can't scampers now? oh yeah we're in alpha aren't we? ;-)

I agree. Tanks should be able to shoot down bombers, otherwise bombers would run more of amock than they are at the moment. Having tanks being able to shoot down bombers means that a player can't simply carpet bomb a tank column- at least not without a cost. Lets run through the situations and think this through.

Scenario 1
Tanks have had their AA ability removed. It's a scale 6 map- you send in a tank column across the map to attack an enemy. In theory, a single tier 2 bomber could wipe out hundreds of tanks if you couldn't marshal an anti air defense for them- or if your enemy swarmed them with fighters. This makes fighters and bombers very powerful and whoever has the most fighters, wins.

Scenario 2
Tanks keep their AA ability. In the same situation, the tanks on the ground at least have a small chance and we no longer have the situation of "fighters wins all". This would limit the effectiveness of bombers somewhat and prevent enemies simply using a spy plane to shadow all of your movements.

In modern terms the idea of a tank shooting a plane out of the sky isn't realistic, but this is a futuristic game- perhaps the could in the near future? Also, given that bombers already can only be targeted by a few units, have total mobility, are fast and hit hard, i am in favor of not giving them any further advantages against the sea or air.

In addition, players who feel helpless or who lose because of the same reason over and over will stop playing. I lose the majority of my matches- but i lose them for different reasons (although a pattern is emerging). What else, i don't mind losing the game- not in the slightest. I would mind however if i kept losing due to the same reason that i couldn't counter over and over again. Eventually i would just conclude there is no point to playing and I'll go and play something else. As stated- making people helpless is a very bad thing.

That's bothered me too actually. Avengers / Freedom Fighters in TA were great harassment planes against ground units