[REL] Legion Expansion [Released!]

Discussion in 'Released Mods' started by Nicb1, May 3, 2016.

  1. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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  2. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    In general, you can assume that units with fast projectiles or beam weapons can shoot through the Rampart. I think titans can as well for balance reasons.

    The shields don't work the same way as in SupCom, which lost power based on the damage taken and regained power at a fixed rate. Instead, Legion shields lose power based on the number of shots absorbed. This means that sometimes the best way to deal with a Rampart is to use an army with a higher rate of fire. You might be using Levelers to attack defensive structures, but try adding in some Dox to the army to help drain the shield faster.
  3. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Good turtle cancers already know it. But with current balance not a problem build like 6-7 shilds nearby with your defence points around base.Some Arconists and you already don't have dox in your army.With long range units its almost impossible destroy 7 shilds.(don't forget that enemy has own long range weapons) When you try push it with your land army...Enemy can move own army under shilds.I was good against this turtle tactic only when i got 20+ meteors, but MLA don't has it.
  4. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    The shields don't really stack like that. Visually they look the same as SupCom shields, but as I said they work very differently. To the game engine, the Rampart is actually a defensive structure that shoots down incoming projectiles in the same way Gil-Es shoot down missiles. If you have several Ramparts next to each other, they will all shoot down the same incoming projectiles. This means that you get no benefit from having more than one Rampart, since they will all lose shield power at the same time.
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  5. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    When Ramparts shoot down by same projectiles they all going to recover in same time then. And its already working like many shilds, not like 1.Just for test:

    1 army) 50 dox+30 slammers
    2 army) 15 slammers+1 arconist+4 shilds

    2 army lost only 2 slammers...
  6. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    Do you have a replay id of this? If the attacking units are properly spread out they will take less damage from the arsonist. I would also be interested in seeing which targets were prioritized and what kind of movement orders were given.

    You are right about ramparts all regenerating at the same time, but this just means that 4 shields aren't any different from 1.

    I also recommend sending in a couple Gil-Es with the attack. I know they aren't very good in general, but in this case you already paid for the advanced bot factory and you don't need to make many. Just 3 Gil-Es can shoot right through the shield and destroy it in the opening shots if they each get off just one shot. (For reference, the Rampart has 750 hp and a Gil-E does 350 damage per shot.)

    Ramparts don't make a base invulnerable, but they do force attackers to play a bit smarter and plan out how to deal with them.
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  7. graushwein

    graushwein Member

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    Do you have a link to the replay? I would be interested to review it. If it is as broken as you say it is, then we should change it. (Install PA Stats if you don't have it, so that we can do this more easily in the future.)

    However... (this doesn't fully apply to you, but is definitely at play here.) Metal spent is very hard to judge in the middle of a game/battle. This is a common mistake people make when judging the power of Legion against the MLA because when you see the two factions clashing with an equal number of units, then the Legion player should be a lot more likely to win because there is significantly more metal in that deathball.

    To be more specific to your example, the data analyst in me must first put everything into perspective by quantifying your given situation.

    +4,800 = 2,400 x 2 Ramparts
    +2,500 = 1 x T2 Power Catalyst needed
    +800 = 1 x Arsonist
    =8,100 metal (1-2 unmolested minutes build time)
    • If MLA instead builds units, 8,100 gets a lot of map/mex control.
    • Holkins costs 9,600
      • Has 100 more range than the Gustav.
      • Opponent hasn't built Gustav yet.
    • Gil-E costs 800
      • Ignores shields
      • Out-ranges Arsonist
      • Dox cheap/useful meat shield against Theodore
    • 3-4 Shellers will exhaust the shields (and energy)
    • There's usually 2-3 different directions to attack from.
    From my tests and observations of games, the hellish defenses you speak of only happen if the MLA player allows it to happen by not applying intermittent pressure or scouting.

    Once built, the hellish defenses only pay off if you run your army into the meat grinder instead of making a few sniper units or attacking from another angle.
    Last edited: June 5, 2016
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  8. Ksgrip

    Ksgrip Active Member

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    I think that he is talking his *** to be fair.
    Hater gonna hate
  9. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    I don't think he is hating at all. I think it is bad to discourage people from bringing up issues that they have.
  10. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Hater gonna hate, balancer want a balance. If you don't have arguments just don't write in this thread.



    Ok so your stuff broken.This shilds lost power and recover in same time only in theory.In real game they are working like different things.And for understand this you don't need in replay.You need just join in game:

    1)build 1 shild+any building and try to kill with 1 slammer(in sandbox).After 20-30 seconds slammer got it. Fine? fine.

    2)build 4 shilds in same place+any building. So what you see? Slammer never hurt it.What it mean? It mean that they are working like 4 shilds, not like 1. Its easy.
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  11. Ksgrip

    Ksgrip Active Member

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    So slty.
    I will write whatever I want on a internet thread if I feeld like doing so.
    Not like I'm gonna stop because you tell me to do so.
  12. graushwein

    graushwein Member

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    I tested your scenario.
    [​IMG]

    Notice the blue bars underneath the Ramparts are going down at the same time. They are getting drained. I think that you are expecting the shield orb to disappear when out of shields? If so that only happens when you are out of energy. Notice that the energy too, 4k-8k used. You're right though, the wall isn't getting damaged. The cumulative energy recharge rate is greater than the number of shots the lone Slammer's capabilities. However I don't see that as a problem because you have 12.5k-15k metal against 450.

    Lets try it with just 4 Slammers: 1,800m VS 12.5km-15km
    [​IMG]

    Is it that you are being deceived by the shield graphics still visible even though the shields are momentarily down?
  13. graushwein

    graushwein Member

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    Many feel that way, but it rarely turns out to be true when metal values are taken into account. 1v1 at platinum and higher, Legion lose a lot more often because players of that level know to keep the pressure on. Legion has more T2 strategic options to balance out their slow speed.

    If you're talking about FFAs, where turtling is the norm and anything can and does happen, Legion's T2 options may make them marginally better. However I often try MLA there and have found a number T2 strategies that do as well or better than Legion ones.

    This is a totally new faction and playstyle. We have had MLA versus MLA for years. With the same abilities, it means that the meta is more likely to boil down to meat grinder scenarios. Now though, you should find that the more successful commanders will adapt their units/tactics to what the opponent is fielding.

    EDIT: We are still paying attention. We know we're not done, but feel we're close. For instance the Starcannon is currently too powerful and a change is being tested. This will probably happen within the the next 1-2 days. Let us know what you think.
    Last edited: June 5, 2016
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  14. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Keep it friendly, please. We value all constructive feedback, be it positive or negative.
  15. frostsatir

    frostsatir Active Member

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    Yea, but shilds working little different than some guys wrote me before.So it has a sense build many shilds in 1 place.And slammer has a very high rate of fire. 4 slammers like 16 levelers. I see shilds hold this fire pretty good.
    And economy not a big problem in late game(especially on some maps).

    Sometimes, yes. I think current shild mechanics not ideal.Maybe let them hold more DPS and shots but reduce recovery rate? If shild lose this "blue line" power, it should switch off totally on 10 seconds.
    Last edited: June 6, 2016
  16. graushwein

    graushwein Member

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    I'm pretty sure that this isn't possible without making it useless. I agree that it isn't ideal, but we have to work with what is possible within the game's modding capabilities.

    I think that his point was that there is little additional benefit to stacking them because they all lose "shield power" for each shot. I agree with him because the stacking drains your energy with no additional benefit until all shields are exhausted, then continues to drain your energy as they waste shots on the same incoming ammunition. You'd be better served by building 2-3 Pelters instead of additional shields.

    That is great! You understand that some units are better than others at attacking shields, like snipers! Also, the shields weren't protecting those 2,000 HP walls much because were melting quite quickly when only 12% of the metal in units was used. So again, I'm not seeing anything wrong with balance here.

    Hmm. So if two people have unlimited economy, then the one with a bunch of shields is going to win? I'm sorry, but I can't take this point seriously. I cannot accept your assertion that there are times when economy is not a significant factor. Economy is always a factor. 15k metal is a nuclear missile launcher... Also, no one can balance on the situation of economy not being a factor either.

    In the future, I'm going to have to insist that you stick to the mechanics of the game and operate on realistic game situations where you have the ability to influence what happens in the game. In an equally fair/balanced situation, where that defensive emplacement is worth about 20k metal and your economy is at least as good as your opponents because you didn't turtle... then just build a tank Titan, as titan shots aren't blocked by shields (to counter this exact situation), with the extra 10k metal you got from expanding while the opponent turtled.

    But the bottom line is that the only ways a 15k - 20k metal defensive bastion can be built is if:
    1. You allow it by not harassing and scouting (you're also responsible for what you allow your opponent to do)
    2. Your opponent managed to hold a forward position so that the bastion could be built further back (outplayed you with better tactics or unit mixing)
    3. Your opponent has a much better economy, and would probably win regardless because:
      1. Your opponent outplayed you with a better mix of units and/or tactics with the units
      2. You didn't expand and harass his expansions (and lose because of your inferior economy)
    Last edited: June 6, 2016
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  17. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    v0.14.0 - 2016/06/06

    General
    • Switched Deathmark and Havoc on the build bar so their positions are better aligned with MLA roles
    • Switched Salamander and Infiltrator on the build bar so their positions are better aligned with MLA roles
    • Added a firing effect to the Miniman
    • Added idle effect to Salamander
    • Salamander turrets now auto fire rather than requiring manual attack orders
    Balance

    Full unit stats are available from PA Lobby.
    • Salamander buff:
      • Turrets now automatically deployed though manual deployment is still possible
      • Turret health increased from 1500 to 2500
      • Turret damage increased from 10 to 15
    • Infiltrator nerf:
      • Metal cost increased from 300 to 450
      • Health decreased from 350 to 250
      • Rate of fire decreased from 4 to 2
      • Increased angle of fire from 180 to 360 degrees
    • Starcannon nerf:
      • Removed option to build Enforcer
      • Removed option to build Scorpion
      • Build power decreased from 50/2100 to 45/1900
      • Rate of fire decreased from 6 to 3
      • Unit pod velocity decreased from 150 to 120
      • Metal cost reduced from 1500 to 900
    • Meteor change:
      • Drone storage capacity reduced from 18 to 14
      • Drone damage increased from 15 to 20
    Fixes
    • Welcome message now links to correct Legion Expansion forum thread
    • Fix bot fabricator having wrong metal cost
    • Meteor launch smoke now shoots in the correct direction
    • Miniman bomb explosion effect now timed correctly with explosion
    • Rockteeth given identical rate of fire and damage as other Commanders to ensure fairness
    • Fixed bug preventing Necromancer from sometimes spawning all its Purgers
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  18. Ksgrip

    Ksgrip Active Member

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    As I'm seeing that people get confused woth what unit ignores shields.
    My suggestion, why not add an icon to the build bar icons, maybe at the bottom right of the image that means shield breaker? That would be a really easy solution, and people would catch that info solely by looking at the image.

    My suggestion a semicirle with thunder or something along those lines.
    Also +1 to the effect going off when shield is depleted. Probably the obly way you can have that happening is if you put a wait for recharge time.
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  19. Ksgrip

    Ksgrip Active Member

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    @Quitch Do you like the idea?
  20. psdpro

    psdpro Member

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    You made the Starcannon even cheaper? I have to disagree here; this thing is a T2.5 factory. It builds many of the same units as an Advanced Walker Foundry, which costs 3600 metal, as do orbital factories. It may have fewer hitpoints, but for that cost, it makes me wonder if I should even bother building adv surface factories. Even the Lob is 1200 metal, and all it makes are doxen.
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