[REL] Legion Expansion [Released!]

Discussion in 'Released Mods' started by Nicb1, May 3, 2016.

  1. irvlipschitz

    irvlipschitz Member

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    Thank you for the PADB for Legion. Would it be possible to add an Option to Show Legion? There will be a lot of players who will want to focus on the new units.

    Another idea might be to color the Tier levels for the units:

    huangth likes this.
  2. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    Today the Legion team took a little time between balancing sessions to talk about how spending so much time working on Legion has caused it to start seeping into our dreams...
    martianhunter, elodea, dom314 and 6 others like this.
  3. optimi

    optimi Well-Known Member

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    I've been a little too overwhelmed by both the quantity and the quality of this mod to make any real comments about it (despite meaning to post something since release.)

    Just wanted to say thanks to all the devs for making PA even greater than it already was. You guys are the best.
    Even if you did release 2 weeks away from my exams:p
    martianhunter, elodea, Ksgrip and 3 others like this.
  4. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I want to feedback some balance issue.
    The interplanetary mobile teleporter Comet is too overpowered.

    1. It can fly to other planets, so it is an air version Helios.
    2. It can't be seen from orbit, thus other players won't get any warning like the Helios.
    3. It can be built by any advanced fabricators rather than orbital fabricators only.
    4. It only costs 2400 metal, and this is the real overpowered point!
    Its price makes the unit cannon and Helios nearly useless.

    One unit cannon can only store and launch 12 units.
    To get more throwing ability, player needs to build more unit cannons which takes 10000 metal per cannon.

    Helios takes 30000 metal, thus it provides better throwing ability.
    And it can be seen on the orbit, overall it is fine.

    But look at the Comet, it only takes 2400 metal! What?
    It it incredible cheap which allows the Legion to drop it again and again.
    Just a small group of T2 Legion units can cause heavy damage to the enemy base.

    Here is my suggestions:
    Separate the functionality of current Comet!
    Turn it into two units: a cheaper one and a much more expensive one.

    The cheap comet is mobile air teleporter which costs 2400 metal, but it can't fly to other planets.
    I also think it can be built by T1 fabricators without breaking the balance.
    The 2400 metal is near the price of a T2 factory, it is expensive for player to use it without T2 eco structure.

    The expensive comet can fly to other planets, but it should cost more metals.
    I personally think it should take at least 30000 metal as the same as the Helios.
    I hope its model can be enlarged, and it should warn the player as it is a Titan class unit.
    Even though it is a big nerf, it still has many advantages in comparison with Helios.
    Other players can't see its construction, and it can be built by any advanced fabricators.
    I think it is still good enough.
    Quitch and cptconundrum like this.
  5. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    This is good feedback and I'll let elodea respond to most of it, but the one thing I want to point out is that Legion has no interplanetary unit cannon. There are advantages and disadvantages to both units. For example once the unit cannon is finished it can send units to many drop points, but the Comet is limited to just one point of entry. On the other hand, a Comet is a teleporter and can send as many units through as you want to that one spot. This fits the Legion design goal of concentrated overwhelming force compared to MLA's mobility and raiding. The Unit cannon is more expensive, but it is also a factory and produces advanced units. A Comet represents a huge risk compared to a Unit Cannon, since you are investing 2400 metal and a lot of orbital travel time to set up your invasion. Unit cannons have a lot more re-usability because they can remain in the safety of your base.

    I think the mistake many people are making is in comparing the Comet to Helios, when it really should be compared to the Unit Cannon.
    martianhunter and Nicb1 like this.
  6. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    After see how devastating the Comet drop is, I believe the Comet should be treated as Helios rather than unit cannon.
    You say that the comet can only appears at one position at the same time, but this is also true for Helios.
    In my opinion, the risk of using Comet is completely negligible.
    The cost is much less than the MLA unit cannon, but the outcome is almost as the same as the Helios.
    That's why I think it is unfair.

    To go to other planet, MLA players need orbital factory + orbital fabricator + two teleporters.
    Legion just need one sky bridge and one comet if he already reaches the tier 2.
    The price of comet must be reconsidered.

    Using comet to replace the functionality of unit cannon is also very easy.
    Send comet to one planet and drop some units with fabricators,
    and then repeat it to next planet.
    Soon the units are on every planet.

    About the Legion orbital unit cannon,
    my idea is to make them full functionality unit cannon which can send units to every planet.
    Of course, its price should be modified.
    And some of the units which are too strong should not be created by this unit cannon.
    Let the umbrella can intercept the drop pod, and it is fine.
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
    elodea likes this.
  7. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    wow man, nice feedback. Instead of just saying x unit op you actually went into the logical reasoning :)!

    I agree with your argument, but i think the better comparison benchmark for comet is more towards orbital fabricator + teleporter and interplanetary unit cannon from the perspective of the players decision making. Ofcourse the Comet is different from both normal teleporter(1300+1000) and helios(30,0000), so these are only rough benchmarks giving us a min and a max value. There are also other factors we have to consider like
    helios is invulnerable to anti air and has alot more hp
    helios has been balanced in vanilla as a titan unit, so its cost is generally over exaggerated.
    comet has to slowly travel up and down when it arrives
    legion faction is quite immobile and we wanted a fun unit that can change gameplay up drastically both tactically and strategically.

    You are definitely correct that the best solution would be to charge the player extra metal if they want to 'upgrade' their comet to travel inteerplanetary. Unfortunately there isn't any intuitive of streamlined way of doing that (makes me very sad). If we had two buildable comets, it would confuse people alot!

    Another thing to keep in mind is that some things will seem off when you compare them against certain vanilla units for example enforcer vs slammer or thor vs atlas. MLA is not very well balanced in certain areas and some units are definitely stronger than others. Because we decided early on not to change any MLA gameplay variables, sometimes we're left with no choice but to balance against the 'stronger' MLA options instead of the 'weaker' MLA unit. e.g. in the case of slammers and levellers, we generally balance our units around levellers. Or for atlas vs ares, we balance around ares.

    There are some things I am looking to tweak for comet though like reduced hp, orbital speed, and vertical speed. And increase the cost as a very last resort if it comes to that. But until i start seeing replays and games that show what i suspect then it will likely stay as it is for now.
    Nicb1, huangth and Quitch like this.
  8. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    This is true, but we have to avoid falling into the trap of mistaking mirrored units as being the only balanced solution. Sometimes factions can have different playstyles, different ammounts of mobility and such. I'm not saying you're wrong but only that this stuff needs to be tested in practice.

    For example when we first included the star cannon in test builds, we really thought it would be super imba and wreck everything else purely by comparing the numbers and utility. In practice though we were very surprised by how it was actually slightly on the underpowered side, and didn't wreck face at all!
    Nicb1, Quitch and Ksgrip like this.
  9. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    I also feel that the star cannon is underpowered.:)
    Its fire range is limited, so it is more like lob rather than the true unit cannon.
    And all the opponents can see its construction on the orbit where is not too far,
    thus they can prepare something to neutralize it.
    Once the preparation is done, the star cannon is useless.

    Here is two suggestion about star cannon.
    1 Make it works as normal unit cannon which can shoot to other planet.
    The only difference is that it must be built on the orbit where can be seen from other planets.
    I think you will be against this idea, but I think it is the best way to balance it.

    2 Make it capable to drop anywhere, excluding other planets.
    No range limit, work as unit cannon in the single planet.

    For both modification, the price and the available units of star cannon should also be adjusted.
  10. Quitch

    Quitch Post Master General

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    The question is though, do you have any examples of any of this in the wild? Back in balancing there was a strong argument made for the Starcannon being OP as a rush tactic in 1v1. It was all done with numbers, and the numbers looked good. When we finally ran tests on it it turned out to not be OP at all but rather an exciting new way to play that differentiated the Legion from MLA, while being entirely counterable.

    I can't speak for elodea who has a far better feel for the game than me, but I'm innately suspicious of theorycraft balancing. I like to see examples, replays, stats, and lots and lots of testing. If no one can provide gameplay evidence that something is a problem, then to me it's not actually a problem.

    A counter-example: the Hive is getting nerfed in the next patch because there's a lot of game evidence to show, not only that it's OP, but to help identify why it's OP.
    martianhunter, elodea and huangth like this.
  11. optimi

    optimi Well-Known Member

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    I think the Starcannon is pretty well balanced as it is. It's cheap as chips and can be built relatively early in the game, and 12 Enforcers can shred unprotected bases rather quickly. IMO the range limitation is a fair trade for this. Honestly, I'd propose making it more expensive than it currently is, but I'm no balance guy, so I'm not sure.
    martianhunter and elodea like this.
  12. huangth

    huangth Active Member

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    Using current comet,
    Legion can colonize other planet without making ground based orbital factory.
    All they need to do is to rush the T2, and they also get the invasion ability to other planet.
    I even feel it is much easier to expand on multiple planets than the MLA can do.
    And this conflicts with the concept of Legion.
    Thus I believe that (1300+1000) is not the min value,
    the price of ground based orbital factory should also be taken into account.
    (1300 + 1000 + 2000) may be a better min value.

    On the other hand, the price of Helios (30000 metal) is also not the best max value.
    In many aspects, the comet is much more outstanding than the Helios.

    First, it won't be seen on the orbit.
    Other players can't see it unless it is transferring orbit.
    If the comet drops units outside the radar covered range, the opponent won't see anything.

    Second, unlike the umbrella, there is no area build for AA turret to cover the entire planet.
    Helios has 13000 HP which is used against the 800 DPS umbrella with 300 fire range.
    Comet has 4000 HP, but the AA turret only has 75 DPS, and the fire range of AA turret is only 100.
    Though the Helios has much more HP, what the Helios faces is much more tricky then the comet faces.
    And the comet can nearly always find a gap without AA defensive structure and drop down the units.
    Just find a unnoticeable place far away from the metal cluster, then the drop usually works.
    The only way to take comet down is using the fighters.
    One can argue that the air fighters is more available than orbital fighter (which can counter Helios).
    But it is not true for multiple planets system where the orbital units can support other planets easier than the air unit.
    Once the ground force with some combat fabricators or regular fabricators are dropped, the job of comet is done.
    New sky bridge can be built to replace the comet.

    Thus, I guess that the minimum price of comet is 30000 metal.
    And I think its price can be even higher since it is much better than Helios.
    It can do the same job as the Helios can.
    It is much more stealth than orbital units.
    It is more available than orbital units. (All the advanced fabricators can build it.)


    My detail proposal:
    1 Disable the interplanetary ability of comet.
    Keep its price, HP, and the model.
    Allow it to be built by T1 fabricators.
    And its name should be changed.
    Don't use the name "Comet" anymore, since it can't fly in the space.

    2 Make a new interplanetary air teleporter unit.
    Price: 30000~40000 metal
    HP: 10000, (as the same as Zeus)
    Name: Comet
    Class: Titan unit
    This unit should only be built by advanced fabricators.
    And it should warn other players when it gets spotted.

    Model: enlarged comet, or a completely new one.
    How about this?
    The T4 bomber of SC:FA, I think it is a nice shape for being a teleporter since it has a hole.:)
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  13. cptconundrum

    cptconundrum Post Master General

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    The star cannon is pretty balanced. You say they can see it and prepare for it, but on a small enough planet ythe units can drop down anywhere. It isn't going to work if you try to land in a base, but dropping small squads of enforcer/patriot combinations onto expansions can really hurt. I see the star cannon as being great for slowing down MLA on small maps, but maybe less useful against Legion.
  14. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Interesting read

    Unfortunately, any model work is out of the question as that is really time consuming. I think one of our modellers even swore a blood oath not to do anything like this again unless he was paid LOL. Maybe we will need to make a bigger whip to get him back into line ;).

    But in seriousness, we'll definitely be keeping a close eye on the comet and how it's used in the meta game as it evolves.
    martianhunter and huangth like this.
  15. Ksgrip

    Ksgrip Active Member

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    Blood for the blood god¡¡

    dom314 likes this.
  16. redndwhite

    redndwhite New Member

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    Sorry to derail... I have been having issues with Legion in the respect that it will crash during weird times. Normally when I go to select a bunch of units (seems to be around 20+), whereas in titans, on the same machine, i can have 3k+ units selected and be fine.. Stress test to see if it was a bug in the code or something.

    When I'm not using vanilla PA, won't crash, but select the Legion and it will. Haven't been able to have a game go for more than 10 minutes or so before it craps out.

    did not know that the comet was interplanetary, was able to use it once before it crashed, found that it was really able to do some damage. Can see it as being overpowered, but as it's essentially a unit cannon that is sent into battle, I can see the appeal of the lower metal production cost. Will be experimenting with the comet and Legion, but so far seems good. Balance is relatively even, though I like the variance of the units, which suits my play style a little more, so rather excited to see this develop.
  17. graushwein

    graushwein Member

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    What is your OS?
    Have you tried disabling all mods other than Legion?
  18. proeleert

    proeleert Post Master General

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    V 0.10.0 out now!
    Hope you all like the new build effect from @dom314
    Also the Hive nerf is in and a bunch of other cool stuff see log below.

    v0.10.0 - 2016/05/09

    - New build effect
    - Marauder firing sound fixed
    - Improved Purger description
    - More work done on the lobby UI
    - Black Knight now heavily drains Ramparts
    - Hive nerfed:
       - reload time increased from 10 seconds to 14
       - no longer accepts orders
       - health reduced from 125 to 100
       - cost increased from 600 metal to 750
       - Swarms are now properly targeted by other units
       - Swarm speed lowered from 60 to 50
       - Swarms no longer accept orders
       - Swarm lifetime lowered to 6 seconds from 6.5
    - Peacekeeper buffed:
       - weapon range increased from 70 to 75
    - Air bomb splash damage only affects air units
    - Fix Rockteeth commander not having a torpedo weapon
    - Monstrosity nerfed:
       - metal cost increased from 1700 to 1800
       - health decreased from 6100 to 6000
       - acceleration and brake decreased from 40/30 to 10/10
       - turn speed decreased from 60 to 45
       - main cannon yaw rate decreased from 70 to 30
    - Purger buffed:
       - damage increased from 350 to 450
    - Stoke buffed:
       - damage increased from 35 to 39
       - splash damage increased from 10 to 25
       - splash radius decreased from 7 to 6
    - Lancer tweaked:
       - damage against bots decreased by 15%
       - damage against vehicles increased by 10%
       - less likely to fire into the ground and do no damage to target
    - Excalibur nerf:
       - health decreased from 650 to 350
    - Titans prioritise shooting other Titans
    - Reduced Tyr splash radius from 180 to 160
    - Improved ability of Arsonist to hit units
    - Optimisation of Arsonist effects to reduce lag
    - Hives can no longer overlap other units during placement
    - Hive selection hexagon size increased to properly fit the unit
    - Legion players now have a Legion Commander icon on the player list
    - Legion UI can now be disabled separately for the menu and in-game UI
    - Improvements to the way the intro video is displayed
    - Improved main menu load time when Legion theme is disabled
    - Optimised background images to reduce mod size
    stuart98, dom314, graushwein and 4 others like this.
  19. redndwhite

    redndwhite New Member

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    These games have all been against AI on PAX map.

    - Windows 10

    Active mods:
    - Legion client and server
    - AI Mod compatibility
    - Weapon tracking

    I had disabled the mods not directly installed with Legion. Game crashed... was putting a commander to assist a T2 construction when it crashed.

    Also tried uninstalling all of the mods and reinstalling. Seems to be crashing when I put units to assisting other units.

    Also tried using myself as MLA and the AI as legion, which was working great, up until I attacked, then once I started attacking the base, it crashed.
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  20. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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