PTE Build 76412-pte now live (updated with new build 12/16/14)

As I said, I don't actually want more micro. But if you're addressing the people who do want more micro Yaegz is key on your list there, and he said he plays mostly 1v1. So I can see the relevance to micro. But getting too enthusiastic with making micro bigger will break large scale multiplanet games.

But for those people who relentlessly and doggedly want more micro, I'd be happy to have their ideas and see if we can make them work conceptually across single planet-> multi planet games without breaking anything.

Then if they look good enough, we won't even need to ask Uberdevs to put it into play, since they'll have already seen it and gone ahead with a first pass on trying to implement it.

If people want more micro, make a mod with their ideas, then showcase it to the rest of us. It'll provide a good base to actually see how things play rather then all this theory crafting.

head on over into the mod forums, ask questions and get started, more the merrier.

Not everyone is software savvy. I dont' know the first thing about using fancy code outside the alphabet for these posts. Besides, this thread and others are specifically for people's ideas to give to uber to consider putting in the main game. Modding is great and all, but most of the game changing overhauls do too much for me to be happy with. I only want small more fundamental changes. I like that the games run at the pace they do, I don't want to slow it down. I like that dox can shoot up. I miss the old TotalA days where everything could try and shoot at everything else. It didn't always work, (You had the occasional miracle artillery shoot down a fighter plane) but it was the thought that counts.

Also, just making a mod by yourself isn't the same as brainstorming in a forum thread. You might think your initial idea is great, but then after firing it off and getting feedback, you realise it's severely limited or incomplete, or maybe only good in theory and not in practice?

It's disheartening when it happens, but at least you've only spent a few minutes reading/typing, and not coding making mods.

Also, our biggest learning comes from our peers, so for every idea you think you failed to have, there's potential 200 other ideas that might give you a new one, or be that new one for you to try.

Code for PA is actually painfully simple Javascript.

Literally just punch in numbers and you win.

Code:

{
  "TEMP_texelinfo": 4.07719,
  "attachable": {
    "offsets": {
      "head": [
        0,
        0,
        3.5
      ],
      "root": [
        0,
        0,
        0
      ]
    }
  },
  "audio": {
    "loops": {
      "move": {
        "cue": "/SE/Movement/bot/assault_loop",
        "flag": "vel_changed",
        "should_start_func": "is_moving",
        "should_stop_func": "is_not_moving"
      }
    }
  },
  "base_spec": "/pa/units/land/base_bot/base_bot.json",
  "build_metal_cost": 130,
  "description": "Scamperer: Analysis: Light Assault: Anti-land and anti-ship lasers. Light armor.",
  "display_group": 40,
  "display_index": 80,
  "display_name": "Scamperer",
  "events": {
    "build_complete": {
      "audio_cue": "/SE/Build_Complete/bot"
    },
    "died": {
      "audio_cue": "/SE/Death/Bot",
      "effect_scale": 0.5,
      "effect_spec": "/pa/effects/specs/default_explosion.pfx"
    },
    "fired": {
      "audio_cue": "/SE/Weapons/veh/land_scout_fire",
      "effect_spec": "/pa/effects/specs/default_small_muzzle_flash.pfx socket_rightMuzzle /pa/effects/specs/default_small_muzzle_flash.pfx socket_leftMuzzle"
    }
  },
  "guard_layer": "WL_AnySurface",
  "guard_radius": 90,
  "max_health": 160,
  "mesh_bounds": [
    4,
    3,
    4
  ],
  "model": {
    "animations": {
      "aim_down": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_anim_aim_dwn.papa",
      "aim_up": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_anim_aim_up.papa",
      "death01": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_anim_death01.papa",
      "walk": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_anim_run.papa"
    },
    "animtree": "/pa/anim/anim_trees/bipedal_mech_anim_tree.json",
    "filename": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot.papa",
    "walk_speed": 14
  },
  "navigation": {
    "acceleration": 120,
    "brake": 120,
    "move_speed": 14,
    "turn_speed": 720,
    "type": "land-small"
  },
  "physics": {
    "push_class": 2,
    "radius": 2.0
  },
  "recon": {
    "observer": {
      "items": [
        {
          "channel": "sight",
          "layer": "surface_and_air",
          "radius": 85,
          "shape": "capsule"
        }
      ]
    }
  },
  "tools": [
    {
      "aim_bone": "socket_aim",
      "muzzle_bone": "socket_rightMuzzle",
      "spec_id": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_tool_weapon.json"
    },
    {
      "aim_bone": "socket_aim",
      "muzzle_bone": "socket_leftMuzzle",
      "spec_id": "/pa/units/land/assault_bot/assault_bot_tool_weapon.json"
    }
  ],
  "transportable": {
    "size": 1
  },
  "unit_types": [
    "UNITTYPE_Bot",
    "UNITTYPE_Mobile",
    "UNITTYPE_Land",
    "UNITTYPE_Basic",
    "UNITTYPE_FactoryBuild"
  ]
}

That's the Dox in Statera for example.

These naval balance changes look tasty. But why not increase navy health? Is that idea planned? It's just weird when t1 bombers can kill ships with a few hits.

Also I am _really_ looking forward to changes that try to favor more t2 play in 1vs1, as I hope they basically will force the balance towards:

- less unbalanced energy usage of t1 fabbers compared to t1 factories, so basically more expansion play as building structure won't be completely useless vs spamming units based on low resource levels.
- reintroduction of wreckage as a means to add a whole extra layer to the strategical implications of attacking, as it gives a player who is behind a chance to get back into the game.

The next thing after that I hope for are UI improvements to orbital, so it becomes not a pain to use, and then balance changes to orbital that make at least a little orbital play in 1vs1 the norm.

I mean imagine 1vs1 play with:
t1 fights on ground air and navy, reclaiming wreckage to fight back from weaker positions, t2 fights on ground air and navy and an top of that orbital fights

Maybe I wasn't painfully simple enough for you, I have zero experience with javascript. I'd be stressing that I'd break something.

Even if I accept your assurances it's easy to learn and work with. My lack of confidence will override my curiosity in this case.

Also, there's 101 other mod 'balances' and 'overhauls' out there, and they probably will all break each other when used simultaneously. I'd rather try to pick the best of all of them and put them into the main game.

So at worst, I'd be trying each individual mod, but I'm not so impatient that I want to make my own when I have a perfectly functional, if incomplete vanilla PA to play.

I think it would be really cool if the majority of time spent would be on macro but due to the nature of macro and the helpful area commands and queues, I don't know if it's possible. Maybe if we start with 3 commanders on 3 different planets then macro will be intense enough for micro to be irrelevant (that actually sounds pretty fun). But because things take time to build and resources need to be gathered there will always be time for micro and it will be the majority of time.

I don't know if I am in favor of increasing the amount of micro in the game because I don't think that is the vision for PA but I am definitely not in favor of reducing micro. Damn, now I really wanna play a 1v1 where each player controls 3 commanders on 3 different planets.

That is basically I how I feel as well, though I'd like for that kind of gameplay to come from a single commander. I am quite sure it can be achieved. PA was much closer to it a few month ago in fact. Back then I could spent all my attention on expanding, expanding and expanding some more and I do play rather fast.

Talk about raising the skill cap. Just give me 3 commanders to control and I will never complain again about how the game can be too easy lol. I would have to revamp my hot key setup to accomadate constant multi planet action. Can we take PA in that direction? 1v1s consist of at least 2 commanders on 2 planets? That might alienate new players a bit but it would be fun as all hell and truly make PA stand out from all other RTSes ever.

Hehe, well as I said I would hope a good player should be able to quickly grow that much even with 1 commander. For that we need a working orbital. Orbital, a long time ago, was in fact priced to be t1.5 so in fact _lower_ than t2.
Personally I would find it epic if we could go t1 spam, start to expand via land, air and navy => t1.5 start to expand to multiple planets => t2
all while fighting from early on. Though I can see we need better UI for the control of orbital stuff. This starts with simple improvements that actually allow to see and select orbital units without doing weird camera movements and ends(?) with introducing a minimap for every planet.

For this to happen, there needs to be a sense of progression. Right now it's just Start-> build t1 Units -> Protect eco -> Win.

Oh you didn't win yet? Build more t1!

YOU STILL HAVENT WON YET?

Build. More. T1.

There needs to be a penalty for rushing units out early. This penalty can be of multiple forms:

1) you lose ground in the expansion game because the other guy gets more stuff faster. Simple: Ecoing for a few minutes is better than 8 factories + win.
2) You cannot spam out enough units to take him down in time, and his expansionist tendencies beat you in the mid-game.

I'm sure folks can come up with more creative ideas than these, but it's a start. Right now, rushing is without penalty. Zerg heaven is all we have.

How about having the exact same resources being spent on army and expansion as now, but have expansion actually cost half as much so people have twice as much expansion from early on? Depending on the map size economic growth from expansion does snowball into more resources that then result in a progress of the game. But yeah I agree with you here for the most part.

Although in theory your suggestion is cool, I think the streaming eco limits strategic diversity. It's not like I can save up metal and then dump it into T2 all of a sudden like I can in SC2. Maybe if we start with a lot more resources or get them quicker then progressions can occur. Idk just brainstorming.

Edit: Maybe not the streaming eco but perhaps the fact that metal can't be stored very well in early game.

updated OP notes with Build 76079-pte

I think that is not actually true and may be a result of you thinking in sc2-ways, as there dumping all your resources quickly has that effect. However a streaming economy does allow for quite a bit more economic growth while staying manageable and that's where the game can get back what it "lost" for the "store and then dump out" stuff.

Best change ever..

Well, Yaegz if we ignore all the details and simply put it up as a direct comparison.
You'll have to run with me on this one, I don't actually have the figures in my head and I'm not about to go fetch them for such a minor detail, it's the message that's important, not the details.

Starcraft marine 50 minerals

Coh2 engineer squad 215 manpower?

PA Ant Unknown.

For both SC2 and CoH2 you pay your lump sum up front no way around it. You can choose a marine/ engineer squad, OR you can choose a worker/ rifle squad. You can't pick both.

In PA, because you do "not" pay the full cost of an ant or dox up front and because you pay it over time.
you can have both the ant and the dox, and if your eco is good enough, 2-3 other things too.
You build them all at the same time and they all finish at the same time.

Compared to SC2 and COh2 then, you can have 1 marine, and 1 engineer squad, or in the same 30 seconds you can have 1 ant AND 1 dox, and maybe another ant from a third factory.

I'm not sure what you're getting at by diversity, and I know I'm not great with my example, but I hope I conveyed the point across?

gg typo.

There is an almost functional csg palette if you model.showCsgPallet(true) The only major thing missing is some idea of what you are clicking on.

this is very work in progress right now. just to let you know