Pay to Win?

what about, random funny instult from the developers or typical running gags of the developers for the commanders

Hey, you never know if the DotA (Defense of the Annihilation) or Mortal Kommander mods end up being really popular, those unique commanders might be way more important.

What are you even doing up at 2 in the morning, get some sleep ;p

Mike

LOL, I didnt know that DotA fits perfect to TA I like that, I wish I would have played the mod in TA too.

Honestly, I think you're right. However the nature of a significant proportion of online players is to whine about anything they see as imbalanced, regardless of the truth of the matter (see Mavor's various “OP” tshirts for amusing examples).

I'm continuing to argue that commanders should be equal to help avoid future arguments. In general though I definitely think that the details should be left to alpha/beta, I despair at some of the ludicrously specific suggestions that have been put forward at this stage.

That, and also people complain about not having access to gameplay options despite having bought a full game. Some will only complain about not being able to unlock it because they bought the game later, despite being willing to pay more then.
Again, this point has nothing to do with balance.

those kids should STFU and take 5 seconds to grasp the context of kickstarter.

nobody that buys it later (and at zero risk) will be paying more than the alpha/beta commanders are right now.

Just give them another skin/sound and everyone is happy. Why make it so complicated?
If you want to add different commanders thats fine, but do it for everyone!

Defense of the Annihilator. That really needs to stop sounding so proper for SMNC.

That is not what doing balance perfectly means.

How is this question relevant? Why focus on pure commander strategies? Even if we actually knew the gameplay it wouldn't matter. I can't point to situations and strategies but then again why do I have to?

I haven't seen anyone refute this statement which to me is self evident.

Instead you say that A will have an undetectably small advantage so that it doesn't matter. Sure, I can see that happening but why risk it when changes could be fine as purely cosmetic?

Normally I don't think "the devs can just balance it" is an answer because I am pessimistic about most people's ability to balance. But here the question isn't even about unit balance, it is about options.

How is it going to not be an issue? As in are there plans to balance bonuses such that there is no issue or are changes just cosmetic?

As a $150 backer (since it seems to matter :roll: ), I say we make the special commanders slightly worse just so people will shut up about it. I'll play the crap out of my "special" commander.

PKC, Kickstarter's model isn't about Pay2Win. The "Win" we all get from our "Pay" is the game gets made. The rewards are just extras.

I pledged digital $100, and I think the changes should be cosmetic only. I just don't think that having non-cosmetic changes outweighs the costs. There's no reason to have non-cosmetic changes, and a whole bucketful of mostly perceived and possibly some real problems.

Besides, I don't think many would want to have an advanatage (if only because they have more options), and it's more work for Uber with no benefit, so...

Who knows, they could even make the custom commanders UP compared to the normal ones; playing with one would be a way for skilled players to give themselves a handicap and make the game more challenging. Sort of like playing Queen of Thorns when I play Demigod against my friends who don't know the game very well.

Except the the commander is much less useful than any demigod in Demigod. As other keep saying (and should continue to keep saying until people get it), is that the commander doesn't have much use after the first 5 minutes. And if opponents start far enough apart, they'll have even less use. And if they don't mess with build speed, then well, who cares what they change...except for the people who care about nothing.

This sent me to a frenzy looking at "balance" in search of perfect balance. Since you know what perfect balance is, GoogleFrog, please explain it.

Perfect balance for me would for example be a Terran vs Terran match in Starcraft 2, 100 Peewees vs 100 Peewees or a mirror match in a fighting game. This doesn't say anything about the strategic depth which I think is important when evaluating Balance so I'd rather abolish the term "Perfect balance".
Therefore I think Sirlins definition of Balance is pretty good:

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html
So having a different commander with different abilities can work it's not that different from choosing fighters in a fighting game. You choose as you start the game and you will most likely make the choice without knowing what your enemy does.

If the commander choice is double-blinded from the start of the game I'd argue that this isn't a problem. You don't know what the enemy choose.
Different commanders might be situational and benefit different strategies. It's up to the players to find counter them.
Similar to fighting games where you might be able to pick different characters they all play differently but they can still be balanced towards eachother.

I think commanders with different stats could be balanced.

Interesting read about the difference between metagame, local imbalance and global imbalance(which is bad):http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2012/7/18/a-discussion-of-balance.html?currentPage=2#comments

Let the new commanders have a separate visual style only. They should be just skins. Im a 100$ pledger. Pay 2 win sucks the awesome out of the game. Give everyone the same game ffs!

Edit: even if the new skills are underpowered, every player who buys the game with a version that doesnt have that commander, they are going to feel a little cheated because they didnt get the WHOLE game. Imo, everyone should be treated the same. I wanted to pledge more because i want the alpha, some want the t shirts or whatever, some just want to support this awesome game.

tl;Dr - do not give pledgers more ingame content than others. Give everyone the same game. Skins i can accept though, but just barely.

This is true, and I don't deny that in most circumstances commander choice matters little. However, I would point out that while the commander isn't as useful as a demigod, that doesn't make him less important. Losing the com means losing the game after all! His importance comes from his status as a huge liability, rather than his usefulness.

Thus, it would be possible to make a commander that would be arguably be UP, by making it easier to kill, while still making it an interesting challenge to play by giving it other capabilities that a skilled player could make use of.

Yeah, but give that commander to everyone and not just a few.

And why should it be that way? Why should the commander become useless after 5 min? Worse than useless, it becomes a liability, as you still have to protect it. The Commander should be useful for the whole game. You should have more choices than hiding it somewhere past the first 5 min.
Starting units should still have some usefulness in the late game. Why no the Commander?