PA is really, really bad on Linux right now

Discussion in 'Mac and Linux' started by liamdawe, August 22, 2014.

  1. liamdawe

    liamdawe Active Member

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    Well amazon are listing PA as releasing on the 5th September (not the early access version which is a different product), so they must have gotten the date somewhere.

    I just seriously hope the PA guys fix this up soon and don't release it in the current state, as they will quite rightly get a lot of flack for it.

    I want to support them (and play it!), but it's just bad currently.
  2. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    If this date is correct then I personally doubt it's going to be fixed before release, IMHO. Release date for PA it's nothing special and just milestone like Beta or Galactic updates. It's just important to not delay it because there is Kickstarter backers who waiting for their goodies.

    Though if Uber finish their pre-release crunch then we'll get new "unstable" builds soon and it's where I wait to see some potentially game breaking things like new version of Coherent... :)
  3. liamdawe

    liamdawe Active Member

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    I thought all kickstarter backers had keys to the game now didn't they give them all out already? Either way releasing a broken product for some to satisfy others doesn't seem right at all.

    I just hope they are paying attention to what's going on and not just pushing Linux to the sidelines.
  4. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    It's not about releasing game, but physical stuff for higher tier rewards. It's just have to be done sooner than later because some guys already waited for about a year.

    Jorgen track all Linux and Mac related issues and he also implemented number of Linux-specific improvements I requested and if somebody know anybody other Linux-only issues that have to be addressed I totally sure there won't be a problem in fixing them.

    Unfortunately problem with Coherent is a bit more complicated because there only few of ways Uber can go to fix it. At least it's how I personally see it. :(
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  5. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    Does cutting down on coherent processes VIA @SXX post on how to limit how many views of coherent open at once, make this run more reliably on coherent?

    I could guess 3 crashes straight could at least go down to 50% working on launch if it were brought down to 9 or fewer processes.

    From what I understand, there are things that are bare code and only work on linux designed for linux, things that don't and never will work for linux and intentionally ignore linux and it's users, and there are things like PA which are openGL and try to be cross capatable but simply "function" on Linux while working on all 3 it has seperate issues.

    In that reguard, it does function on linux, its a step up from ignoring linux and deleting any posts mentioning linux like it doesn't exist (every other game like EA), and just about as good as programming gets without making a linux-exclusive version (which if you think about it is making the same game from the ground up all over again).

    Thank God we have a little bit of cross-platform technology like opengl at least. I hope some tweaking can at least make the game reliably playable from linux, as long as it can launch the rest can be tweaked.
  6. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    No it's not related. With lower limit one renderer process just handled more than one view, but code that do actual rendering and transfer bitmaps basically the same. So it's won't affect this problem.

    PS: Actually I'd find way to improve memory usage when attempt to bypass crashes. :D
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  7. normantis

    normantis New Member

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    This is not sounding very good. :(
  8. sechastain

    sechastain Member

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    Eh. It mostly means that Uber is ignoring Linux right now.

    It doesn't mean it's not possible.

    I've done plenty of cross-platform development, and you can have full parity. But with Linux being < 5% of users, they just don't care that much right now.

    The fact is, the game was immensely playable before. And then they quit paying attention. Hopefully they'll start paying attention again soon.

    It drives me bonkers, though, that Mac is more playable than Linux now. So sad.
  9. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    Reason why problem we talking about here can't have easily workaround it's PA being fully cross platform. Overwhelming part of code base is shared between platform so Uber can't just upgrade/downgrade Coherent only for Linux.

    Wrong. Actually UI breakage happen after Uber hired Jorgen who actually started to improve cross platform support. Before this happen in April there as extremely limited effort spend on Linux version.

    Before only @UberWilliam was able to manage Linux-only issues and after he implemented basic SDL2 support in November there was zero improvements in this area for half of year.
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  10. sechastain

    sechastain Member

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    Depends. All we know for certain is that some kind of interaction with Coherent is breaking Linux. If it is known specifically what that is, you can solve that problem.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across. It would seem like you're saying that Linux has become worse because Uber is spending more effort on cross-platform support. But I don't think that's would you really mean. ... I'm hoping not, anyway ...

    Yeah, and the game was pretty stable in that time. I've been playing for a year now, almost exclusively on Linux. Video drivers aside, the game has been pretty solid on Linux.

    Now it's bordering on unplayable. The turning point in my mind is when they began changing up the tactical overlay, which would point to major changes in Coherent. It's been pretty much down hill with each subsequent release.
  11. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    My personal opinion about the problem (I didn't ask devs too much what they doing internally so please don't quote me on that):
    1. There is multiple reasons that cause this error.
    2. It's known they're appear when UI was split into separate views.
    3. Though there is no here is no certain info what exactly trigger shotdown.
    I also tried to find and fix it by modifying UI, but failed.

    Again, my personal opinion, but it's not that easy when we talk about proprietary middleware like Coherent. Devs might be want try to fix it, but they don't have it's source code and can't patch it. So they might need to wait till 3rd party release fix. Or they have to upgrade to newer version of Coherent which might takes time because it's have to be well tested for all platforms. E.g they can't release fix for Linux if it's going to break Windows or Mac versions.

    Nope. You said that developers "And then they quit paying attention" and it's something I can't agree with.

    We all know there is serious game breaking problem and it's really sad that it's can be fixed fast. Still fact is: Uberput a lot more effort on Linux support since May than ever before:
    1. Full SDL2 support was implemented: bug with window inactivity on was fixed, mouse lock implemented for Linux.
      Game become even more cross-platform that benefit Linux client.
    2. Steam runtime integrated for standalone version.
      So game no longer tied to Ubuntu libraries and it's easier to run it on any distribution.
    3. OpenGL code rewritten to use core profile.
      This bring support for open source drivers.
    4. Minimal GL/GLSL version changed to 3.1 to better support for open drivers.
    5. Problem with often crashes on Nvidia found (buggy GL_ARB_buffer_storage on Linux).
    6. Some tiny quality-of-life improvement for game name in PulseAudio.
    7. Likely number of other changes I forgot.
    So again: problem with UI crashes are serious, but it's not a reason to say that developers spend less time on Linux.
    Last edited: August 26, 2014
  12. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    Also I just noticed that Coherent Labs released new version 1.8.5.0:
    http://coherent-labs.com/changelog-1x/
    If I remember correctly PA using 1.8.4 at moment so hopefully it's will fix Linux issues. ;)

    PS: Also I pretty sure that I'd checked their site after 20 August and there was no such version in change log. :rolleyes:
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  13. liamdawe

    liamdawe Active Member

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    There is no mention of fixes relating to it crashing on Linux, so it's not looking good.
  14. DeathByDenim

    DeathByDenim Post Master General

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    I was wondering that too. However, they do list:
    • Crash when creating a lot of views on Mac OS X
    • Crash of CoherentUI_Host when destroying UISystem
    • Fixed crash when destroying view that was initialized with an empty URL.
    I realize the first one is listed specifically for Mac, but they don't seem to mention Linux that often in their changelogs (last fix was a year ago), so who knows. It sounds awfully familiar because the trouble with PA started when they separated everything into different views.
  15. liamdawe

    liamdawe Active Member

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    True, but this is taking into account that uber is keeping up to date with it, and we don't know if they are or aren't.
  16. DeathByDenim

    DeathByDenim Post Master General

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    I don't know either. I'm hoping they will update Coherent soon as well. According to SXX (three posts up), Uber is now at 1.8.4. That was the newest version as of six days ago. So it does seem they keep up to date.

    Furthermore, they just closed the thread about this in the General Discussion forum, so I would say they are certainly aware of it at least. :)
  17. normantis

    normantis New Member

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    I take what I said back.
    This is really not sounding very good.

    Off to play AI War, which runs perfectly on Linux btw!
  18. SXX

    SXX Post Master General

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    Unfortunately I was wrong. There is already 1.8.5 in stable... :(
  19. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    This situation in Linux is rough. Everything SXX said is right, this is totally unfair difficulty not related to the devs at all. It is like, if you went to go to work one day, your car wouldn't start, and your boss fired you for it. It is terrible bad luck is what it is.

    I am just sorry for the devs for this to act up in proximity to a stone timeline, and for the linux users who are inconvinenced, but I personally have faith they are working to get it working with linux again, and anyone else with that faith or patience to wait for it to be fixed and help try to figure out the problem and keep positive to come back when it is working has my sincere gratitude.

    Also, it would be nice for them to keep us updated on details from their side on this problem. A post here from the leads or the linux related staff, saying what errors they found, if they have and planned solutions, and how long it might be to either track the error or implement a solution, would be a real friendly gesture from the devs
  20. garat

    garat Cat Herder Uber Alumni

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    We have a lot of fixes coming. UNfortunately, if work around don't do it, until we have a build ready for you guys, hard to recommend much else.. it's only a few days. Promise. SOrry I can't provide a better answer. :(

    That will give us a better place to start attacking this stuff from.

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