Modding compared with Sup Com

Ok, cool!

Yeah, so, I would definitely support having a binary option for modding, but I would like the mainstream (new units, new gameplay modes, new factions, scripted maps, etc.) to be through an interpreted and sandboxed language with a permission system.

This would give the best compromise for having long-term flexibility to do really cool things that no one thought of before, and have the user-friendliness (and also, user-protection) that a sandboxed scripted language would give.

Also, what about incorporating a unit modeller/animator right into the game? I mean... that would be a huge deal, and make it a lot easier for people to join in the modding community?

Such a tool is much too complex for most people to use, and it would be way too much effort for Uber to write one. Best that they simply import from the common 3D modellers, like 3DS and Maya.

Basically what Dead said, the time and effort on Uber's part just wouldn't be worth it and in the end it'd likely end up being pretty limited in what it can do. We got a year before the game gets to us, so plenty of time to learn up.

Mike

;(

That said, you're probably right about it being too complex for most people even if it was made into the game. UnrealEd was always one of my favorite map editors, and it was still too complicated for some people. (To be fair, it did get more complicated in version 3)

I would love to get into modding... I just don't feel like learning c++ for a year or two

BlackOps co-founder... You've watched Spaz's videos then?

There won't be any C++ so that shouldn't be an issue.

Well, that's good to hear. Better start practicing...

Yes, considering our mod is pretty much front an centerso we knew about vids before anyone else.

Mike

Will there be some kind of WC3 style map editor so you can make simple mods and custom maps without being a programmer? I'm afraid the number of mods will be cut by 90% if not...

Perhaps using C++ also makes the game vulnerable for cheats/hacks?

How? I have no idea what you are saying. Cheats and hacks should be near impossible without actually running code on the server's side, as I assume all important details will be serverside.

The presence, or lack thereof, in any part of the game from internal low engine code to the highest level simplest scripting abilities of C++ would have absolutely no effect whatsoever apart from on speed and usability. Security isn't a concern, certainly not with a language as literal as C++.

You know, Triggers aren't all that different from regular coding, except they're weaker and more limited. It all depends on what it is you want to do. Making statements such as "I'm afraid the number of mods will be cut by 90% if not" is ridiculous, it certainly never effected SupCom/FA, there were plenty of mods, in fact, the Mod Talk Forum on the GPG Forums has 63 pages of threads, and while not 100% of them are for Mods, the greater Majority is.

Mike

I can see modding tools released after the game or as a DLC, but they're just trying to finish the game right now.

Mod tools released as DLC? Why? Based on what I've seen posted here there won't be "mod tools" like it was for SupCom aside from the 3D exporters, and I think Über said they are looking into using a basic .fbx format for the 3D assets.

Mike

I completely forgot about the procedual generation... As for a WC3-like editor, I might look into making a simple modding tool and/or modular unit creator.
The biggest challenge for me would be making the 3D models, never been good at it, likely never will be.

Sure, they're not that different if you know how to code. Now, everyone could learn how to code right? The only problem is - they won't. If non-coders see that you have to learn code they will be turned off the mod scene instantly. And there are a lot of non-coders compared to coders. I don't think 90% is exaggerating at all.

Dude, I love my Supcom mods, but you can't really compare the Supcom mod scene to the Starcraft and Warcraft 3 one.

Did you ever play any custom maps in those games? There's thousands of them, and it's literally an endless source of fun for all player types. You had Diplomacy in Africa/Asia/Europe/Global/Star Trek, like a dozen different versions of Risk, historical maps from WWI to WWII in Europe/the Pacific/the world/Eastern Front to the American Civil War to the Rise of Rome, Mario Party style silly minigame maps, RPG maps better than many commercial RPGs, and strange, brilliant creations like a The Thing map where one player was chosen randomly to be The Thing and could turn into a Dark Templar at will, and had to kill the others while the others tried to find out who was the Thing and ran around trying to find the parts to repair their vehicle to get out. Much better than the official The Thing game! And of course, LOTR RTS maps better designed than the official LOTR games. The most unique map I can remember was one where you and your friends pilot a battlecruiser around space, fighting pirates solving quests and chilling at the station, and you can move around inside your ship from the the pilot seat to the gunner seat to the comm station, like a true multiplayer Mass Effect. And then there's DotA... And all these maps were one click away from the BattleNet lobby, no messing around with websites or mod managers, and once you had the map you could load up the editor, tweak it to your liking, and host a game with your version, opensource style. I can't be the only one who is much more interested in whole new games like this, than in balance mods or new units for the base game. The base game can only take you so far!

Compared to Blizzard modding, even adjusting for playerbase, the impact of TA and Supcom modding has been tiny. Why? Well, TA and Supcom modders have always been most interested in fiddling with the base game, while oldschool Blizzard RTS modders have been making hundreds and thousands of totally new games. In my opinion, it's because of the super easy map editors combined with the super easy distribution over BNet. Starcraft and War3 custom maps are made by gamers for gamers. Supcom mods are made by coders (who also happen to be hardcore into the base game, so a TINY subset of players), for the ultra hardcore gamers that can be bothered to dig them up and install them.

The Starcraft and War3 editors are probably the most accessible game creation tools ever. For the first time they gave the average player the power to make his own games, and the result, I think, is a foretaste of what we'll see when tools like Unity reach that level of approachability. Basically, the players are kicking the game industry's ***. The best thing big developers can think of is to rip off this really popular thing the players made.

An easy to use map editor can double your playerbase going by Starcraft (50% only play UMS maps), or increase it several times over going by Warcraft 3 (DOTA). So for Uber this is probably the best possible investment in free DLC. If they want they can keep it on the level of the tiny niche that is Supcom modding - or, for a small investment, they can bring it closer to the overwhelming games industry juggernaut that is Warcraft 3 modding. Blizzard screwed the pooch totally with Starcraft 2 custom maps and Uber has a chance to swoop in and steal their lunch here.

All they need to do is:

1) Release noob-level mod tools in addition to the pro-level ones. The War3 editor is a good starting point. It needs to be easy to change the game rules without writing one line of code. This way, PA would combine the accessibility of War3 modding with the power of Supcom modding. It needs to be on two different levels though so it won't overwhelm the noobs until they're ready to learn. (Uber would actually be performing quite the public service! They would be easing thousands of non-coders into coding.)
2) Make a custom map/mod game hosting and distribution service as idiot-proof as Battlenet 1.

^this^

I believe that THIS had a much much bigger negative impact on the spread of mods for TA/ Supcom than the lack of an 'easy' editor.

Going with a 'join the server, play the mod' setup for the mods was a billion times easier than the Supcom 'get this file, put it here, maybe there, oh your version might be wrong, whoops where's the download link again' model.

Well, focusing on both pro mod tools and noob mod tools would cost Uber more time and money. I think that if Uber releases powerful mod tools, the community can easily make user-friendly mod tools to encapsulate it. As long as they are easily found, the same effect would be reached.