MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unlocking

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Then the person without tanks (or bots, depending on the map) is at a clear disadvantage because they're playing on a map that un-favours it.

Wait a minute.

• ...did you just agree with me?

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Eh... I guess.

My point is that you shouldn't lock anything vital while you can propably lock stuff that are "special" and very situational without hurting newbies. It can be a way of preventing newbies from making mistakes. Once people are experienced... Well they got enough Experience to unlock stuff then.
Maybe the PA unit-lineup and techprogression will prevent newbtraps as every unit role is important. Unlocks could be added once newbtraps are found if it improves the players experience.

About customizable commanders. Say you can choose between a sniper-weapon and a machine-gun-weapon. Both are viable but differs in how they are used. It can be similar to choosing a starting factory where both are viable but require different tactics and strategies.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

I agree that unlockables - if any - must not give an universal advantage. And if they do, then the matchmaking should find someone with a similar level. Since we can have multiple players joining the battles half-way, it seems possible to balance 1 highly experienced guy with a few low level ones. The development stage has not yet begun.

What I like and you guys likely miss is that the unlocking system is something that games often use to teach the new players. I, for instance, love the diversity of units. But when a new player joins a battle, then builds e.g. a vehicle factory, then this factory alone may offer 6 different vehicles:
-1 builder
-1 amphibious
-1 scout
-3 different types of damage dealers - which one to choose?
And we all know that there may be more than 6 of those on higher tiers...

Think about the following scenario:
1. A new guy, not an RTS veteran, purchases the game.
2. Matchmaker throws the guy into the mid-battle among 5 other, experienced players.
3. The new guy will be likely overwhelmed with the variety of new units. This will make him either a nuisance on the battlefield, or simply a dead weigh to the team.
4. The new guy quits.

+Unlocks are excellent when you want to teach new players. If you throw everything at a player at once, then the learning curve becomes very steep. This may result this game being hardcore-only project. I would love to be a part of a large and diverse community, where the new players come and stay with the game.
+Unlocks give methods of paying for the game - as much as we may hate the advantages of paying players (faster xp growth or whatever), this is what propels the development of most games. "The Online F2P with Micro Payments" model can fund this game for very long, and, in the end, give us an excellent, very diverse game.
+All arguments against this system that I have seen are opposing to giving clear advantages to the grinding players - and I agree with the fact that it should be avoided. However: unclear advantages, trade-offs and options to customize a faction seem not to be out of place. Besides, remember that the matchmaker will be present, so it may be possible to match the players of similar skill levels.
+Introduction of unlocks, F2P model and a gentle learning curve may make this game a potent player in the gaming market. It can become so much more if the money is invested in it. It scares me that this project may be wasted because of our decisions.

I know that the devoted SC and TA players will scream "Blasphemy"!!! But look at the "World of Tanks". Their success is repeatable. And there is no way that the game of this complexity could have ever been developed only via kickstarter funds.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

I would withdraw my pledge if an F2P/micropayment model looked like even a faint possibility for PA.

Expansion packs I'd buy but I won't play a pay-to-win game.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

This is a very radical statement. So if the game has all the features you could wish for, free servers, exhaustingly many players to play with, but you can pay for a faster progression (no in-battle advantages), then "NO"?
You would rather have the game with only the basic set, without any strech goal achieved?

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

But what progression is there? If there was a progression that didn't involve an in-game advantage, you'd probably see more support in this thred.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

I think that the best progression I can find is that the new players can access all the technology tiers (maybe not the experimental?), but not all the units. This way the new guys learn how to play the game, how to use the basic units, then discover the advantages of the more subtle and specific units.
The unlocking would be obviously based on the experience earned from the battles.
And to avoid the exploits: only the battles created by the matchmaking algorithm could give the experience.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Hmm maybe I misunderstood. If the payments are only to speed up unlocks that can be gained with experience anyway in a reasonable time e.g. all of them within a couple of weeks play then that's not so bad.

Also payments for visual unlocks are fine. I don't care if someone wants to pay to have a different coloured commander or whatever.

It's when the arrangement is that you pay to get a new unit that only you can use and your opponent can't unless they also pay for it, that I can't support.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

If that was the case, then I agree with you. I want to fight with my mind and all my knowledge, not with my wallet.
And if the premium account type/visuals/you-name-it can boost the development budget, then it is even better!

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Its ok if there is stuff you have to pay for to get in PA but only if its also possible to get that same stuff in a reasonable time (so not a 1 year grindfest) just by playing. None of the stuff you can get should mean insta win.

In zero k we have many different commanders. 4 different chassis alone and you can put alot of modules on them to further customise them. It doesnt give any real advantage over newbies it just opens new tactics/strategies.

Yes on some maps maybe using a certain tactic is slightly better but would a newbie really consider that? I think they are busy enough with learning how the game is played overflooding them with options will most likely make them perform worse.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Hence the unlocking. A gentle learning curve is what keeps the players in the game. I would love to have ~1kk gaming community in PA - you never know what your enemy can come up with. And you are not playing with the same dude every 4 games.

I wonder if devs are reading this and what is their opinion.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

There's skirmish for the new players to cut their teeth, and there's more than likely other games where players can learn to avoid the rookie-traps.

I don't see the need to deliberately go out of the way to withhold things from players.

When you're competing, you compete on an even footing with your opponent. It's not like Olympic athletes have to unlock cleats or studded shoes.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

So... "Do not play PA until you become a good PA player"? Do you really want PA to be a game only for the hardcore players?

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Let me become a good player by letting my learn for myself. Give me all the tools, and a well-written tutorial, but don't spoon feed me.

If I was unsure how to use something; I'd ask for help.

Or maybe I'd play a non-ranked game, and derp about.

If the Zero K community can't do the above two things, then I now understand why I had never heard of it until just recently.

If PA was a non-hardcore game, then why the hell would you care about preventing players from falling into rookie traps?

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

1. You are not the only one to play PA (if it succeeds at all). The unlock-as-play way of teaching players both makes them better on the battlefield and ensures that more of them actually stays with the game. You are an experienced player, and a supporter I believe, so the rookie trap preventing and unlocking tutorial may not apply to you. Especially if you are so against the idea.
p.s. You sound like a good guy to choose the units to be locked at the beginning.

2. Here you have lost me. So PA is a hardcore game (even though there is no PA whatsoever) and therefore I should not care about preventing players from falling into the rookie traps?
Well, I do care. Mostly because I do not consider myself an epic hardcore player, and the statistics show that most of the players is not hardcore gamers as well. Look at the typical scenario of a game dying:
1. Everybody plays the game and enjoys discovering its features.
2. The least skilled ones are constantly losing, which drives them away from the game.
3. The item 2. now applies to the average players.
Result: Around 7% of the initial players stay with the game. You play with the same people all the time, all tactics are known and there is little or no budget to develop the game any further.

Second argument (posted above): because the matchmaker can team you up with a rookie, and you will end up eliminating your enemy extremely fast, as you seem to be a hardcore gamer. This will result in the game being mundane and unrewarding for both you and your opponent.
You may also be teamed up with a rookie against another team - and this is where all the learning system pays back.

Third argument is: how many games out there utilize the "Learn by Yourself" mechanism? "Learn by Fun" is more popular. Do you really expect that new players will be willing to spend as small amount of time as 30 minutes to even begin the game? Why should they, if there is a vast choice of games which will be fun during the learning phase?

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

People are different. You might like to ask. Others might not. If you host a game of your own all units are unlocked by default. Zero-K lobby tries to pull in people to automatic hosts were unlocks are enabled. It's a way of smoothing the game experience for new players and giving people a way to achieve goals and I think most people like it. Some people even wan't more unlocks.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Maybe I should phrase is this way:

What is the most popular RTS of them all?

• It's Blizzard's StarCraft.

Now, is it a hardcore RTS? I would argue that it is. I may not like StarCraft's focus on micromanagement and clicking like a machine gun, but I respect it for being big. And I respect it for doing what it does well.

Does StarCraft lock units, buildings, or upgrades from new players until some condition is met (ala. games played, units killed, victories, etc)?

From my understanding, it doesn't. Imagine what the game would be like if it did. How do new players learn, and not fall into traps and pitfalls? I don't know, but it certainly appears that the online community is incredibly healthy. This is true even considering that StarCraft is known to be full of traps and pitfalls for new players.

I consider this to be evidence that an unlocks system isn't at all needed.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

The "statistics" to what you refer to also show, that most people do not care about online multiplayer and often only want to enjoy skirmishes. I don't see how these people need anything of what you have described.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

12 guys from my workplace have purchased Starcraft II when it was released. 2 of them still play it casually, none on the regular basis.
As the counterargument I can present World of Tanks - a game I have spent a lot of time playing. It holds the Guiness Record for the highest number of players playing at the same time. This game utilizes the concept of unlocking. It helps to keep the gamers in the game.
I am probably out of the arguments BulletMagnet. I think I am unable to convince you. What has made you such a fierce enemy of metagame? It brings only a little bad, and this bad is only bad for some of us, and a load of good. Please think of it: PA will never earn as much money as it can if the micropayments and unlocks via xp from battles are introduced.

Re: MMO Aspects such as levelling commander skills and unloc

Hence skirmishes should offer everything the game has. Simple. It is even posted in this thread a page or two back.