Metal: thoughts and suggestions

Maybe this could be implemented more quickly, and it would help somewhat - but it obviously wouldn't really solve the issue of having a fair competition.

The next nearby metal after those 4 spots might still be a 5-sized group close nearby for one player and 7 scattered patches all over the place for the other, as is with the current generation process. If one player gets a nice grouped metal field and the other has to spend minutes driving around to get the same number of metal extractors, it will be a decisive handicap in a lot of games. The same thing if it happens on another planet - the player who tries to contest it from the "inferior side" that often exists right now would probably loose.

I've only seen five planets so far, but metal seems perfectly fine to me. Go look at TA maps, start counting metal spots, seems about right. I had no trouble bootstrapping to a large economy. Perhaps because I didn't play alpha, thus wasn't used to massive metal deposits? Regardless, map generation options will solve anyone's issues.

Take another look at TA maps and especially at starting positions and nearby metal. You'll see a pattern of a minimum amount of spots very fast.

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As for a new metal algorithm, Methlodis raised some good points.

I especially want to emphasize one of them: Do not scale metal amount linearly to surface area (ie. it scales to the planet radius squared). Give smaller planets a boost until they reach an amount useful for a normal game and lower the amount on very large planets to avoid overabundance.

No argument, but I've not yet had to start without at least three metal spots in five games so far. I'm speaking more to general metal density than start locations. I think clusters of metal would be a good design choice, as it increases the feeling of 'outposts', and allows more focused expansion and combat.

Where in my post did I state that TA maps didn't have a pattern of starting metal, or a pattern of metal in general?

You didn't, but you also said that metal is fine and did a comparison to TA. And the big difference to TA is that starting metal is not guaranteed.

(Yes, you had the caveat in there... but in caves are bears and they eat you, that's why its called a caveat. )

It would be good if it dropped 2 or 3 more metals spots at you start location. These could be added to the map/planet after you select a position and are ready to drop. That way to can build a good base but won't be able to have continual base building unless you expand to other metal spots. This would also give you a a better choice of where to start. EX: Do you pick the two metal spots in the middle or the one next to the water.

The issue is always what happens if there is a overflow of metal deposits, no incentive to attack then again this could be addressed by allowing multiple start planets and not just 1 planet as it is in Beta.
My 2cents.

One thing that i'm finding quite interesting is that i expand and get as much metal spots as i can to suport my growth and army and tech but everyone i meet just turtles and stalls their eco till the get advanced tech... so of course i out mass and resource them and can crush them.. not to mention raid them while they tech... Its almost getting too easy to win...

- energy to metal transforming building at a low rate
- several upgrades on Metal buildings

No and No. The First is a huge balance conundrum and hard to apply fairly across the unique battlefields present in PA and the second just isn't going to happen, no Upgrades.

Mike

The metal as it is, is excellent. They could be clumped together a bit more, in groups of 3 or 5, and more visible.. but apart from that i like it. Turtling only really happens if the planet is small and/or there are alot of players, you can't spread out. Multiple planetary starting locations could solve this, say in a 9 player ffa, 3 players start on this planet, 3 on that one, 3 on that one. etc.. But before that is done interplanetary transports need to be made, otherwise your only hope is to land a transport and build a base there. Don't know if that's what they want, because then the only way to crack a planet that has been locked down, would be to chuck an asteroid at it.

Of course, moving orbital units between planets is coming in i think.. But yeah, metal rates are good!

ctrl n puts little fluro dots on top of the mass points, makes it much easier to see, especially the otherwise invisible underwater points.

Thanks for that!

I also think the metal is fine and with extra planets being out there if you really want more metal start claiming some planets ^^ the most annoying thing currently is when builders get stuck in their pathfinding and when you can't claim a metal at all do to something blocking it... but both have been said to being worked on so in the next build or something hopefully those problems will be fixed ^^

Having started in Beta, I was surprised to find Metal planets are not made of metal and have normal metal spawn points. Coming from TA, I expected Metal planets to allow players to mine for metal from any location, and I would vastly prefer if they did.

Having unlimited metal provides variations in gameplay, that non-Metal worlds do not provide. Variation is good.

While the current distributed metal spawns encourage expansion, they disourage those who like to turtle up and manage their base effectively. With distributed spawns your base crosses half the planet making it difficult to manage. While on a Metal planet with unlimited metal players could build a precise base that is more easily defendable and managed. Many players tend to gravitate to a turtle play style, and would be accommodated by being able to mine anywhere on a Metal world.

I'd argue the variation provided by the fact that the Metal Planet is potentially a Death Star complete with planet exploding laser would be enough.

Mike

I think the metal should stay it's course, but with added parameters.

First, make starting points generate no metal around them for 2x the distance considered as close, and then make six metal always spawn in varying degrees 360 from the player spawns all at the same distance of 1x the range considered for the 2x dead zone. This way, everyone starts with the same metal within close distance and no extra metal generates within close range for either player. The random metal in other places is fine, they will always be a fight.

Then, make metal do a check for "mex placeable" before spawning. Check if point is free of terrain meshes within a few meters. If it isn't, have it use the nearest free area or just reroll the generator.

I think this keeps starting metal seperate from extra metal, so planets have a useful minimum amount as long as it is a starting planet, while non spawn planets will have only as much as it is big, and spawn planets will have extra metal from the starting minimum based on their size.

As far as number of metal, roughly 25 total metal for a starting planet size 2, 7 per spawn and 11 random metal, and 7 metal total for a small moon that isn't spawned on, are good numbers. This can even apply to multiple start planets, where the 11 random and the 7 close metal are what each player gets per planet, which is more metal to get to orbital sooner but less than 25 and both players still start the same distance from metal even on different planets.

That is a non easymode economy right there. Heck, after that just tweak mex income itself, so when one gets destroyed it means more of an effect.

How is that going to work with online play though? Many are happy with the new metal amount and distribution. Others, like myself, are not. I have been unable to play the game since beta as for me it's just so slowed down and dull now.

The point I'd like to make though is, after metal sliders have been implemented (if that's what is going to happen), how will you know what the level of metal is when joining a game? Will we be able to filter games based on metal levels, or see them against games in the list? I see a number of problems associated with implementing the sliders along these lines, perhaps creating too much diversity.

One of the problems with this sentiment is that in systems where there is a metal planet amongst non-metal planets, either everybody starts on the metal planet or nobody does, and then it's just a race to get to the metal planet and whoever controls it should probably win. The idea that a single strategy is better is not in line with the design of the rest of the game.

The metal planets do not work like metal maps in TA. So there might not be such a problem.