Making the Commander Late Game Viable

Actually, that's kind the first thing Uber has mentioned that I'm a bit wary about.
A lot of RTS games are about teching up, transitioning and opening up the tech tree, not just to more options, but to exponentially more econ and power.
However, there's no point in trying to argue something that hasn't been played and tested. So I'm going to wait and see.


All I wanted to do was to bring up the topic so the commander isn't just a liability in the mid to late game. If the primary game type is assassination, then that's "you", and "you" should matter in a game-changing role, not just a high-value kill target.


I like the idea in SupCom that the commander needed to be protected from snipes, but also, where the commander was in the field of war, crazy things could happen.
Overcharges on experimentals bring them down fast, it's a mobile tac-nuke launcher, can stop T1 spam in it's tracks and can build a solid forward firebase quickly.
It's not just a bulls-eye you hide in your base under layers of shields behind a wall of flak cannons, it's your king AND queen. A piece versatile and powerful enough to help swing a battle in your favor in ALL stages of the game.

I keep hearing this, but it doesn't match up. The d-gun is short range, and the Comm is slow. It does not have the board controlling power of the Queen at all. A Comm just happens to be pretty good at holding its ground. That makes it a king, and nothing else.

A good queen unit should be able to threaten anything, anywhere. This is a closer match to super weapons, or air spam.

I for one think, that the shift in the relative strength/usefulness between commander and his army over time is an interesting aspect of the game and not necessarily a problem that has to be solved.
In the beginning, with few units the strength of a commander gives options and allows for a bit of small time unit handling. Here the commander still can hold a protective role.

In the later game, where spending time managing a single unit out of hundreds is usually not the best option (at least if the unit isn't insanely overpowered) having the commander in a role, where he needs to be protected by the rest of his army is an interesting motivation, in particular since any other single unit is replaceable as hell.

To give him non combat functionality to avoid an arbitrary role without function might make sense. It's always better to define value by function not just by arbitrary rule or lore context.

Good point Asgo.

I've got a feeling PA will solve this little conundrum by it's own nature: basically, every single planet is it's own TA or SupCom map in it's own right; it is as if you start fresh by sending the commander over to start a foothold base... be it with the support of a few planets behind you, of course.

It gets REALLY interesting when the next planet to seed is already controlled.


As a sidenote- I liked what bobucles said- it's not just a bulls-eye to hide, it's your king AND queen- the range and importance of the king with the firepower of the queen.
That feels right.

bobucles actually didn't say this. Xe quoted Culverin saying this and disagreed with it.


Personally, I don't see a reason to make the commander a late game viable combat unit. I don't need a singular super unit which needs to be microed offensively late game, I rather concentrate on army movement and base expansion.

Having to hide my commander in late game is reason enough for it to exist, as a focal point of conflict. Having built everything else to protect it and take every other commander out is the end game for me, the commander chilling back in base where I don't have to worry about it (unless the fight gets to it of course) sound just fine for me.

-Meekly raises his hand.-

Umm... RCIX, your wish could be solved via a mod... Right? That way, it would be an optional thing that anyone who desires it could just install it, and it would keep Nanolathe and the others happy for keeping the vanilla game intact for general use.

Now, my actual opinion on the manner... -Stands up in a confident manner.-

I agree with Nanolathe stressing the importance of tone; identity. Good gameplay of classic video games, i.e. Pac-Man or Tetris, achieve their legendary identity via such things as memorable sound effects, infectious music and of course, the crushingly innovative gameplay. Back then, it was ALL they could do, because of technological limitations and perhaps some other factors. That was then.

This is now.

I sympathize with RCIX's desire to have good ol' American-RPG-style "freedom of choice/role". That's understandable, but we cannot toy around with the fact that PLANETARY ANNIHILATION is unmistakably related to TOTAL ANNIHILATION. The identity of Total Annihilation will, for good or for bad, correlate directly unto Planetary Annihilation. Eyes will judge on whether Planetary Annihilation will carry without a hitch the torch which Total Annihilation gave to it, and all because of the name (ignoring the fact that the devs intended this all along).

This happened countless times before; Supreme Commander with SupCom 2 being the one off the top of my head, of course. Many SupCom 2 critics agree that SupCom 2, by any other name, would have been known as a great RTS game, but since it was the sequel to the best RTS game of 2007, it just didn't stack up right. (Disclaimer: I loved the game, and still enjoy it.)

I know that I probably should have been more descriptive with my previous points, but what I'm trying to get to is that making the Commander, which already has its own little "tone" inside the huge canvas of -Annihilation-, suddenly be able to do something it didn't do before doesn't necessarily make it "better". And that's where less-is-more comes in.

tl;dr MAKE A MOD OF UPGRADEABLE/EXO-SUIT-WEARING/ETC. COMMANDER - I'd totally use it.

Supcom's overcharge could have had NO cooldown and the game would have worked just fine. The ability cost an astounding 2000 energy, which is not an easy thing to spam for most of the game, and it was already ineffective as a base assaulting weapon. Half of the upgrades wouldn't have been needed at all.

I mainly want choice. If you make someone require a mod for anything at all, then the number of people they can play with plummets. Mods should, if at all possible, be reserved for things that would actively harm the developer's vision of the base game, or for things the developer is absolutely unable to devote dev time to. I will resort to making one if needed, but there are significant enough design problems with the current state of affairs that I would hope it's tackled fairly early. Hell, who knows, commander abilities might already do this.

And I actually talked it over with Nanolathe and he agrees; tone is important, and the commander should never be even close to invulnerable, but there should always be something interesting to do. This can include combat *looks at bobucles*, but no one is proposing the absurd here =p

After reading that all i just hope there will be a commanderless mod.
And i think it will.

I'm torn... my instinctive reaction towards Late-Game Viability via a suit or upgrades is that of "YEAH MAN LET'S DO IT!" but I prefer to choose the wiser course of action...

... :idea:

Wait a second! An absurd idea has occurred to me... Taking a bit of inspiration from a manga known as Cannon God Exaxxion, we could make the Commander's AI be a "core" in the form of a harmless flying pod, which can be ejected from the commander on the player's command, preferably when the Commander is in dire danger.

Now, how can this be balanced in terms of survivability of the pod versus "you screwed up man, you deserve to lose"? We make the pod be agile and small enough to be able to avoid ANY TYPE of ballistics, lasers, etc. The short end of it is that the AI flying pod would be invincible to anything except a nuclear explosion (or a planet exploding, duh). Now we're left with an invincible AI flying pod that is annoyingly invincible but useless, no? What to do? Well, that little pod must have some kind of auxiliary EMERGENCY power source, right? How about we make it limited? It needs to get a new body in SOME way before the limited power source goes out, thereby shutting down the AI core and the rest of the units. It can magnetically be bound to any unit as a "transport" to conserve energy, but if something unfortunate happens to the unit, the AI core will perish as well. It needs a gantry (what kind; its own kind or another is up for debate) in order to forge a new Commander body.

I'll get to the Cannon God Exaxxion inspiration in a moment. So with what I said regarding the AI flying pod, the intention would be that YES, the Commander can be in the frontlines, but you're tasked with more stress as to the wellbeing of your Commander, since he won't auto-eject if he loses his last bit of life; you'll have to do it yourself. This way, the Commander who tries to help out his main army has to worry about his own bacon, which would put a damper on actual strategies and tactics that can be done anywhere else simultaneously. That way, the opposing band doesn't have to find themselves forced to also have their Commander there, since they could be doing other things quicker and without stress, at least comparatively. The Commander would also require a kind of literal "back-up plan" as to what it will have to do so that, in the unfortunate case that it lost its body, it can get a new one. A cadre of backup units, etc. and an outpost with the necessary buildings. Kind of like some kind of emergency high-speed route engineered purely by units and the destination being a gantry.

Now, on to the Exo-Suit... this is where Exaxxion comes in! Basically, it would be a weapons system, where it could be just a mountable, massive gun, or a full-blown "gunsuit". It would have about a 10% increase to normal Commander range (this can be discussed, but I think it shouldn't exceed 50% of whatever range the devs set on for the Commander's normal weapon or Uber-Cannon), REMOVE his nanolathing capabilities (even reclamation and repair abilities... thoughts?), have a slow walk but a train-like fast runnish walk in straight lines, because of the massive mass it now has. The type of weapon would technically be ballistic, with a small arc; a kind of hybrid between artillery and average direct-fire weaponry. The fire-rate would be fairly slow, but it will have massive splash; this way, it would make the Commander have some scalable degree of survivability against swarms (this trait must be heavily discussed). I forgot to mention, it can still fire this weapon during its slow walk, but it cannot attack while in fast run mode. I think fast run mode should be an automatic thing, activated once the Commander slow walks a certain distance. This way, no one can kite with the Commander, and the intention is that you must have foresight so that you can run before it's too late.

Now, how to make the Commander "put on" the Exo-Suit? It would require a building, of course. The Commander docks in, and the Special Assembly Suit System (S.A.S.S.) would activate, bathing the Commander in the binds that would support the new weapon. I must stress that the Exo-Suit is simply a platform FOR THE WEAPON which the Commander would wield. That's why I previously mentioned that it didn't necessarily have to be a suit; the weapon being bound to the Commander is what matters. COMMITMENT. Continuing, the binds would of course double as a "Combat Vest" of armor; it's not OMG AWESOME protection, but it's something.

Now, all this is well and good, but... How does the Commander take out the sassy gear off so he can go on and do his Kingly duties of nanolathing and spearheading expansion of new territory? He needs to GO BACK to a S.A.S.S. building, dock and wait for it to be dismantled. You would recuperate some mass, but no energy of course (this part should be discussed as well as to how much, and how long it would take, etc.)

Let's see... anything I'm missing... oh right, in my humble opinion regarding specific things with the SASSy Commander, I think its slowwalk should be slower than the slowest combat unit, but in fastrun, it would require speedy units to catch up with him. Its weapon direction rotation should take a while; but legs can still be independent in slowwalk. Of course, when fastrun starts, he needs to be facing forward, else he'll risk slipping and falling into the mud like a punk.

Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you like this inspiration of mine... I'm very proud of it, but I am not afraid to discuss any flaws that you fine fellows may find in it.

Yes. God damn yes. That's an awesome thing, and one of the major faults of supcom.

You didn't play SupCom 2, did you grimseff?
The Escape Pod has been done there (not that it was a bad thing).

ASF. Pop. Game over.

The escape pod really makes no sense. If a big suit with every single ultimate defense can't survive, then a defenseless pod can't survive either.

Of course, if you accept that the most critical unit in the army would somehow NOT incorporate the most powerful, exotic, and expensive defenses in the known universe, then anything can happen.

I did play SupCom 2 (like a few hundred hours...)! I know it's been done, but the key difference in this* game is that the ability activates on its own. This "AI-eject" would have to be manual.

I am sorry, but I don't know what ASF means. :? (I'd appreciate it if someone told me!)
But I'll attempt nonetheless to provide some semblance of an answer to that... It's supposed to be like an emergency protocol. It's not meant to be the best defense; it's simply a pod flying high enough to not be hit by normal weaponry, low enough to not be hit accurately at all by AA-weaponry, and aircraft... well, that can be discussed. I just realized that I could also add, in addition to it being "small and agile", for it to have a strong, but very short-range, magnetic field to aid in its surviving; the same one it would use to attach to units. The time-limit can be tweaked accordingly as the balance is needed in flexible ways; for example, if it's too easy to just rofldodge the enemy and a player would distract enemy units with the AI core without some repercussion, then a balancing method of adding some time-limit draining penalty can be added as the core avoids deadly stuff.

At least in my plan, I think the Exo-Suit shouldn't focus more on ARMOR defense than added OFFENSE; it doesn't matter how much defense something has, if it's slow as hell and only one can be in the map and it's the most important unit of your army, it will get swarmed, and its ragged, intact body will be used as a 24-hour punching bag by Peewees. :lol:

*Edit: Made a simple correction.

HP is not the only way to protect a unit.

If you really want to fight with the commander... hmmmm how about the commander takes *enter number here* dmg per hit/ dmg per sec regardless which enemy attacks it?

- 1 dmg per hit 1000 hp or max 1 dmg per sec (per unit to avoid high rate of fire problem)?

So its easy to calculate if you can use it in a battle or not? A small group of giant units can't one shot it, but your main 1000 unit army can kill it easily?

Just an idea, don't over react!

I can see an "Escape-Pod" working. Have a time limit. I can see desperate rescue missions to retrieve it.

Another idea, along the same lines, is to allow the "Pod" to build a "Regular chase" or a "Battle Chase." (As mentioned, more powerful guns and faster, but can't build repair/capture)

You can "eject" at any time and build the other chase whenever you want. As has been stated, the ejection would have to be manual. If you are fighting on another world, and you got surprised, your in trouble...

I never suggested that...? :?

Bobucles, you're one of the posters I most admire, along with Nanolathe (although I admit he can be a bit acidic at times, through no fault of his own ). Reading your quick jabs to critical points of my system is... a quirky honor.

Really, the truly "defensive" additions that my "exo-suit" would add to the Commander would be a weird movement system. This was just an absurd idea, but I did say I was proud of it, didn't I? I'd like more discussion... and I don't know if this would be deserving of its own Topic... (first-time being so damn active in a Forum... ooooh, so exciting! A-Anyways... -cough-). I'd like it if you gave me more expressive posts; I can't quite work out what you want to tell me besides.

This is exactly my aim with the Flying AI Core. Just another layer of OPTIONAL fun added to the game. Whether the devs want to further burden their time with this kind of thing or not is completely understandable regardless.

No that's just a terrible idea, period. any type of exposure to battle for your com leads to death, you don't want your com to be spotted, he's vulnerable and basically only worth three tanks at best.
I haven't seen a PA alpha senario so far where exposing the com to any scale of battle didn't lead him to death.

Its not a terrible idea, worked fine in TA (d-gun'ed aloot of groups) and supcom (upgrades, ninja Cybran laser commander anyone? Or tactical nuke UEF commander? Or insane life regen Seraphim commander?).

Becuse "alpha" health/armor/damage values are final and cant possible be changed before the game is released?

Combined with commander abilites that will be included at a later date.


Nothing in the alpha is currently "complete", theres aloot of work to be done on general balance and on the commander, you shouldent use the current alpha commander as a argument for the final version.