still seems odd. Does this mean mono will become a runtime dependency on PA on linux or will it ship with the runtime? Thats quite a hefty runtime and a significant non-standard runtime as well, especially since there are some nasty legal gray cloud hanging over it on linux... (http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono) i'm quite disappointed by this.
While I am a Linux user I personally see Stallman as the kind of guy to always focus on the worst possible outcome, that post was done what 4 years ago and nothing has happened. It's certain not ideal to use Mono (mainly because of people like Stallman's fears) but it shouldn't in reality cause many problems.
There is the FOSS side to this argument, and yes Stallman is quite extreme, but with MS track record there is still alot of uncertainty with regards to C# being reimplemented for linux. That in this instance is a minor compared to out of the box support. As it stands if/when a linux install is made available I will have to 1st compile mono (yes I am a gentoo user). Meh... annoying... hoped I wouldn't need that behemoth again but so be it... What about those who are not as savvy, go to launch and get no error, figure out how to run from the terminal and get some craxy error... Mono is *NOT* installed by default on any distributions I know of. This will result in a less than ideal user experience for those casual linux users (since linux has started to venture outside of the elitist and the hobbyist). going to have some annoying repeated questions appearing.
I'm going to have to agree with eeyrjmr here. While the likelihood of MS abusing its position with regards to C# implementations in the near future isn't all that great, it's certainly not unheard of. (Just look at the whole mess behind Oracle's control of Java.) However, do be aware that switching the launcher from .NET to something more Linux-friendly, like python, would mean that the Windows users would have to install libraries in order to run it. Otherwise, they could develop the code for each platform independently, which would become a big pain very quickly. However, given Uber's previous statements, it seems that the launcher will eventually be rewritten to be a lot more like GPGNet, or FAF, so I guess now would be a good time for Uber to consider their options. But if worst comes to worst and it is based on .NET, I'm fairly certain Uber wouldn't have an issue with the community implementing its own frontend, much like FAF was used as a replacement for GPGNet.
It's a little simpler and more complicated at the same time. PA uses Coherent(coherent-labs.com) which exposes an API - an interface - which PA builds upon. API's are just contracts - which can be fulfilled by anything. Currently this ends up with mono - but it doesn't have to stay this way. Take a look at phone-gap, appcelerator, Chrome apps or even android app - you end up with apps being an intermediate step in what you actually run on your machine - where the machine turns the app into something more native - an optimised runtime. Most dev ends up with build pipes - where you take in your source at one end - then run it through a number of stages to transform it, link it to libs, etc - turning it into one or more runnables. So while PA have something today that ends up with mono or .net dependencies - should the gremlins pop out of the woodwork and attempt to tax usage (MS trying to control mono) - switching to alternatives shouldn't be too grim.
What are you talking about? :shock: PA use .Net only for launcher-downloader. Launcher doesn't use any API of game, it's just run it's executable. So you only need it if you want to update. And this launcher app is very easy actually, I think you could rewrite it on Qt in few days. So if there will be enough people who don't want to use Mono, let's just create our own launcher. But please don't start to complain with devs about C#, ok? They use it because they already have it working for SMNC, so they change it just a bit for PA alpha. It's because they just want to work on actual game, not on special launcher for ascetic Linux users. Really, everybody here is want to play awesome RTS game, who care about launcher? PS: I want to believe neutrino or others wouldn't take these crazy C# haters ideas seriously. Because I think it's one of reasons why developers usually don't like Linux users. :cry:
I was actually going to post suggesting this and it wouldn't be that hard. Python + pyObject or something since this exists as std on all modern desktop enabled distro's as stated, my main concern is the the fact mono is not installed as default on any linux distro so for an application to have a hard dependency on it (as PA seems to have) will cause some problems for new linux users THAT is a fact. Yes there is the linux ethics surrounding using mono but right now that is a minor concern (be it that there is no active threat right now) compared to actually being able to launch the damn game AND minimise techsupport. Maybe Uber have thought about this and the launcher has been rewritten for linux & mac, maybe they plan to bundle the mono runtime... who knows right now it is speculation based around the windows launcher where using C# is a reasonably good choice. *IF* once PA is ready for linux it does depend on mono to launch I shall emerge mono BUT then start working on a python launcher, which I shall licence under the WTFPL, or maybe someone else will.
Umm - chill... First - I'm not a C# or MS hater. I've coded in C# in my time when projects needed it and I developed apps for the MS platform for the first 10y of my career. If you actually read my post - I was trying to explain that the approach PA are using allows them flexibility in how they build out for different platforms - allowing them to swap out for something else should they decide it's more reliable.
That's bad idea to ask devs about "make unique launcher for us!" because there is lot of tasks with much bigger priority. I think you agree that it's much important to make game compatible with Linux GPU drivers, than make new python launcher? Isn't it? When somebody ask devs to spend time to some really unimportant task it's make me sad. There already was answer that this launcher will be used on all platforms, at least for now. There is platform-checking inside it already. That good idea, I probably done something in Qt with mod management.
First I'm sorry, my English is bad and actually it's might looks like I'm aggressive. That's not true. Actually I just only want to say that is Launcher and Game (include UI) is completely different entities. Launcher don't know anything about game, except it's executable name "PA.exe". Game don't know anything about launcher and can be started without it. That's all.
*sigh* I didn't say they should go and write a new launcher (THIS is the problem with cherrypicking quotes to reply to RATHER than the entire thing, as in WHAT BIT DID I QUOTE FROM YOU!!! which you conveniently cut... ). You really need to improve on your comprehension... My intent was a bespoken launcher/patcher written by the community rather than going "OI!!!! Uber write in python!" that is a mismanagement of resource... if I manage to sort a launcher uber are welcome it it since it would make linux users life easier (see my main concern with mono on linux - ie it isn't there be default You are right the arrogance of the linux community (a vocal minority tbf) can be offputting for devs, but the other side of it is the dynamic nature of the community to tinker. just tender the creation of the launcher over to us, it will get done for greater good of the linux community.
No problem then. What's do you think about Qt-based launcher? Do you want to use it if there will be one?
Qt is a stock install on the hobbyist distro's so no problem there. I only mentioned python + pyObject (ie GTK) since I know this is stoke on all desktop distro's and I know python and pyGTK (getting familiar with pyQt atm) The power distro users (gentoo, arch...) generally only come installed with a terminal so they are never the issue since if something doesn't launch they find out why quickly. The granny test is always a good one A granny will easily be able to launch PA on windows, it will just work A granny will not be able to launch PA on Ubuntu and yes a granny can easily use Ubuntu (mine has had it on there for the last few years)
Has no one thought that they may include all the required libs with the package on Linux therefore needing to download no extra's for Mono? Others do it.
Ah i see you did ask the question, we will find out soon enough though, can't be many more weeks until it's out.
To Neutrino and Garat, You guys were hesitant to support linux in the first place, and during the Kickstarter you guys kept people like me who were pestering you up to date with personal emails. I can't think of *any* other developer who has been as open during the whole process, and who is going through the efforts of making a home-grown engine run in linux. It's not like you can click a button in unity and say 'publish in linux' like many other kickstarted projects. Dont let the haters get you down! I'm glad I supported your team. $150 well spent. -aaron
In my typical Linux mindset, I have to suggest one more Kickstarter goal... to open-source it after completion so that the game may continue to live and be updated by the community for decades. Hehehe... KIDDING! Can you imagine the cheating that could take place if that source was available? Ugh!
Well I am sure all the developers know what they are doing and have researched the Linux issues enough for us Linux users not to worry. Personally I just want to get it some coverage on my website...and blow up a few commanders.
