Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

Right, so you have both shot your own arguement down in flames right there by saying that you have to use players at peak skill, because i can tell you now, i am a good sniper, a very good sniper infact but when it comes to facing mastah on his gunner, nylar on the sin or OD as an assault we will be looking at an equal game, sure mastah is at a disadvantage, its unlikely hes gonna get the kill on me but at the same time he can deny me access to my sniper perches with mortar, and me getting a kill on him is just as unlikely because he uses cover, jetpacks and speed/dodging agility to get around the map staying well out of my los for more than a second or so to loose another mortar at my face.

OD, as assault, a top player no doubt, sure he has to focus on me, but when he does what can i do? i have to swap from lane to lane, theres no way i can consistantly hold bots off as i have to be dodging left right and centre to avoid them and thats not even mentioning his team mates pushing the lane.

Nylar (apologies on the shortned name, i can never remmeber how to spell it) He plays sin, he plays it near perfect, when he hits the lanes he does it so fast that even using my supposedly oh so powerful AoE i would lucky be to hit him, and when it came to close combat matches his jump spam while slashing would mean i need to time my grapple perfectly, with no chance to aim it towards the edge of the map, no combination of ice traps and flak were going to keep him at bay and whilst i held my own and often came up equals against him it took every trick dodge and playskill i could muster.

Now im sure you guys are already preparing your arguements of "Well clearly your not the best" but i am more than happy to throw the same back at you, you claim you need to measure the classes by playing the best off against the best, but im not sure you are so arrogant as to suggest you are the very best at your class and yet you still deem yourselves qualified to call for nerfs against a 'tool' you cant beat.

You're basically saying that an entire team can, at best, ineffectively and temporarily harass your position after they push close to you in a moot effort because you've already safely disposed of their defenseless bots. That's not a really good argument there.

accept charge is a skill that requires leveling, and is subject to needing endorsements and leveling to hit that 10 seconds..

Lunge being set to 10 only makes it not usable to escape.. right after a lunge in..

Perhaps i didnt make myself clear, any 1 of those players can destroy my efficiency in a game leaving 5 of their team mates to push down the lanes and deal with my team, certainly they do not take me out the game but i would be unable to simply push a single lane into their base and spawn camp such as i would against noobys, such as ANYBODY would be able to against noobys.

Plus they would not need to be close to me, a gunners mortar can travel the length of the map if you have the skill to aim it, and an assault can bombjump above and then bomb from the skys without having to approach.

Might i suggest you more carefully read my posts before coming back with inane and pointless arguements

Just throwing this out there to say something against tinygod's suggestion about bot-killing:

People will still come here and cry about the Sniper even if we couldn't harm a single bot, just because we can kill you when you don't watch out.

The very nature of the Sniper is this, nothing short of denying him his very nature will change this. Headshots remain headshots, wanna turn him into a TF2 version with charging and bolt-action? Fine but let us allow to charge the shot in a way that allows a bodyshot to one-shot light classes (like that game) and a fully charged headshot to instakill a fully overhealed heavy class (like that game) and guess what you would still come here and cry.

That's nice. Enjoy the inside of that little box of yours.

I read your post, and it's all situational crap. Really now, a Gunner has to dedicate all of his time throwing mortars across the map at you? Good one. That's basically the same as saying that a Gunner can't do **** against you. Next. An Assault has to basically pull a montage stunt out of his *** and attach a bomb to you, midair, with half of his health, while on fire. He has to do this repeatedly every few seconds as you respawn, without fail.

I think I'm starting to see the light here.

Just wondering, but are you playing these players on PC or Xbox? Be honest, too.
Who cares, anyway? Your anecdotes don't even hold any weight in this debate.

Anyway, I think I can safely say, if you think you're a skilled Sniper, and you don't see why highly skilled Snipers with the current iteration of the Sniper Rifle on PC are problematic for game balance - then we're done here. You'll never have the understanding of the game, or game balance in general to comprehend it.

Look at how Sniper Rifles are limited in other games, and try to understand why so many companies slow down their Snipers, and make their Rate of Fire really low.
I'm sure you'll have a dumb come back like "Well, MNC isn't like other games!" but I assure you, the issues with Snipers are.

... yeah, you missed the point of my post.
I very much doubt that any players around right now are even scraping the highest levels of play.
And, I doubt they will soon - but even so - what would be the use in playing them off against each other?
There's a lot of luck involved in matches, and so balance issues are pretty much always better left to hypothetical design, design principles and statistics.

Are you saying that only the best players should be able to balance games? I assure you, skill has little to do with qualification. Most companies I've worked for haven't had pro gamers as their gameplay design leads. Sorry.

When it comes to balancing, it's better to have half a brain.

Which is why pro players balance street fighter with Capcom, which is why arQon is working for id software now on Quake Live, which is why phreak is working on league of legends.

Any theoretical and hypothetical mumbo-jumbo will only take you so far, people are telling you (as of now, key point) there is no problem in practice.

Yes balancing is a theoretical matter, yes balancing needs people with brains. Fortunately Scathis is working on this and not you.

In computing terms there is a saying about changing running systems, something I have advocated ever since. There is no need for a change at this given moment (and for my personal opinion on top of that: if there was it wouldn't stop people from crying).

Games need to be balanced around high-level play - that's a given. The level this game is being played at right now (let's follow your argument about the level here) doesn't warrant a change.

As I said elsewhere: take away his bot-killing capacity, turn him into a TF2 Sniper; it will not change anything about whining - headshots remain headshots and I will keep killing people with headshots as often as I see fit.

I choose who lives and who doesn't on the battlefield, some people (similar skill, not braindead) know how to prevent this -> practical balance achieved.

Theoretical balance is not my concern as I prefer to play the game instead of whining about balance, try it some time you'll see that it's fine.

People will always whine about snipers. It's considered a cheap class. It's boring to die to and tedious to avoid. I think most people will agree on this.

That said, you're mixing up whining about the nature of sniping with what makes the Sniper particularly broken in this game. The fact that nobody likes being shot in the head by some vagina across the map has nothing to do with deciding if said vagina is benefiting more from skill or design decisions. A headshot becomes harder to get as your rate of fire and ability to instant scope is toned down, which would be the first and most obvious changes if a nerf took place. That would at least balance the effort versus gain factor of the Sniper. Less rate of fire means more precision and accuracy which means that skilled snipers still do good, as they should, and bad ones that just spam at your general area become the waste of space that they should be.

Just saying. Damn, I need some sleep. :?

The fact that people expect some off-hours, mindless entertainment from cooperative/competitive games is kinda sad for me. Either you play with other five people against other six people and deal with any kind of obstacle you meet the best way you can in given situation at given moment or you lose. No one has a right to whine about it. I have been through this myself and now it really frustrates me how some are intolerant to others' superior skills in this game. Call it imbalance as much as you want, facts are simple: sniper is sort of versatile, but still vulnerable to surprise attacks and spam (and most of all area denial), he is by no means overpowered, it's people who don't want to feel unsafe wherever they go feel uncomfortable when there is one in game. And yes, when you feel uncomfortable, you go braindead, it's the nature of a human of XXI century.

MNC might be considered an arcade game, yet still, there are some things you have to learn if you want to have fun from it. It's not Mahjong.

I've stopped running RoF, Reload Speed and Clip size on pub and I still frag upwards of 50 people more often than not, tinygod will love this.

I love it too, because it shows again, that the skills are not the reason the class is broken.

Or maybe my enemies were just not good enough to deal with me? Statements like mine prove nothing, which was the entire point. Thanks for proving ignorance once again.

This is true, the problem with some of your posts is that you claim that balance is only an issue at top level play. In a few months time, Snipers are going to be even better at Sniping yet the other classes can't improve how well their gun works. Gunners can't make more mortars come out, Supports can make their shotgun have more range, Assaults can't make grenades travel twice as fast. The only class who truly benefits in its core from time is the Sniper. The other classes have limits on what they can do, Sniper does not. If people are complaining about Snipers now, and Snipers claim that people aren't good enough to deal with them, what happens in the future when their abilities to headshot doubles? What is a gunner going to do at that point? However if we give him more tools then maybe he will have something to work with to actually counter sniping instead of trying to get around it. Why should we have to get around something when we would prefer to face it head on? It's avoiding the issue.


Might as well fix this now...

So now what your suggesting is that snipers arent OP yet but we should nerf them incase they become OP?


Actually i had a similar idea with new born babies, to just start killing them all incase in future they become murders. ./wiseface.

Here's the problem, I have explained it like 7 or 8 ******* times now in different threads. Those posts are either ignored or... Well, ignored. It's just a matter of it's ignored and not replied to, or replied to while ignoring everything that's written. The end product is the same. Hell, I do believe I've done it in this very thread in an early page (guess the result).

I'll explain it one last time, and if you don't get it then, I really don't give a toss anymore... Deal with it.

Here's a common variable - It's generally the good players that are saying "no, really, it's balanced".

Snipers have the one-hit kill ability. As compensation they're made of wet napkins and have a significantly higher skill floor than any other class. The Sniper is the exact polar opposite of the Support, they're both extremely reliant on distance to do well. The Support requires close proximity to do anything. The Sniper requires long distance to not die with a slightly stronger breeze.

At long range and equal skill levels, Sniper will win 9.9/10 times. At close range, and equal skill levels, Support will win 9.9/10 times.

But here's the problem: Most people seem to realize that standing in front of a Support's shotgun at close range tends to result in premature expiration for your pro. Yet the same basic concept seems to elude them regarding Snipers and long range. You don't run up to a gunner's face and expect to live, why in the world do you run around in open terrain, in front of a sniper, and expect not to get a lead facial?

That's the crux of the matter. That people tend to be criminally incompetent. Everyone plays their class like they're playing ******* Call of Duty... But you're not. Each class has their strengths and weaknesses. Play to your ******* strengths and avoid your weaknesses! Why, when I'm playing Sniper, do I keep seeing Gunners trying to outdamage me head on across the map with the Mortar, or even more pathetic, with the minigun? What do you, honestly, expect you'll accomplish from it except a freshly ventilated skull? When I'm playing Gunner and see a Sniper, I either avoid him, or arch my mortars from cover. At the very least move around so I get the drop on him instead of marching head on like a muppet. I rarely have issues with snipers as Gunner... I sure as hell don't run up to a Gunner's face as Sniper and expect to live... Why do they expect something different when the roles are reversed?

Play to your ******* strengths. Gunners are arguably the closest class to overpowered in this game. Highest DPS by far, second highest health, high spike and AoE damage, ability to arch mortars from cover, one of the strongest grapples+throw in the game, 360 degree huge radius damage+stun+knockback (1024 units. Same as the support's shotgun's reach). They wreck players and turrets like nobody's business at close and long range, and they're more than a little competent at destroying bots. You think juiced assassins are a problem? A single Gunner juice will wipe your entire base, turrets and players together, of the map regardless of how much crap and what level you have. If you play it properly, Gunner is a catastrophe with legs. Get a good support to escort you, and you'll easily make up for 4 enemy players with ease. Leaving a gunner near your exposed moneyball for more than a second usually guarantees a loss, and so help you god if they have juice...

Assault is the ONLY class in this game with a tool for absolutely everything. Mobility, bots, turrets, players, area of denial...whatever. You name a role, and he can play it. It basically has no weaknesses.

Tank chews through bots like nothing, and can wreck anything but a Gunner at close range without sweating. And I mean 99% guarantee of a kill if you don't mess up. Against a Gunner it comes down to the best player. The Tank also has the second best long range engagement weapon, a weapon only bested by the Sniper's own rifle. 149 damage, same fire rate as the sniper, 0.01 spread. It's also the class with the highest health.

Support can single handedly shut down an entire area against anything short of a full team attack. It's also the pillar of both a good defence and a good attack. A good support tilts the balance of a match with ease.

Assassin can pick her own battles and move between enemy ranks at will. It can one hit kill all but one class (Tank). It wrecks bots faster than any other class except the Tank, it's the fastest class in the game, and the fastest at gaining, and easier to hold, juice with.

Except that would be wrong. If assault had 3 times his health other classes wouldn't be devastating, they'd be useless. Clearly you don't know the difference... Or how to play any of them. At all.

At this point I honestly don't know what to think of the sniper anymore. On one hand I think that the current sniper just doesn't feel "snipery" because of the high default RoF on the rifle. And the fact that most classes are very ill equiped to deal with good snipers at most ranges combined with relatively open maps makes it worse. I don't know if it's a real balance concern, but the "feel" of a class is also very important to me. If you want to hold that against me, I understand.

To illustrate: take, for example, CS. In CS, snipers are also very dangerous, but the difference is that even at long range a sniper is in constant danger. Someone with an AK can still pop your head from across the map and call it a day. In TF2 you pretty much have to deal with the constant threat of spies and explosives spam along with the fact that you can't do guaranteed OHKs without standing still for a while making you even bigger spybait. In MNC, by contrast, the sniper can quickscope all day long and retain his mobility and there's really not much that can kill him at range. Damage him: yes. Kill him: not really.

On the other hand I had a little conversation with grimbar which indeed convinced me that there's no simple solution. I can understand both sides of the argument, I think. So yeah... I think the devs got the point by now: lotsa people don't like the sniper in his current incarnation. We'll see what they do about it.

tl;dr summary of this whole thread:

"My (personal anecdote) says your (personal anecdote) is a lie therefore I am right and you are awful!"

Until legitimate competition begins there's no way to say for certain that sniper is too strong. Initial indications indicate to me that he likely is but any major changes will require some additional time spent playing good teams against each other.

Why don't you ask team Six Star? What I gather they consider Sniper balanced.

Why don't you ask team avam? We consider Sniper balanced.

Why don't you ask team chaotix? They didn't ragequit when I put on some sniper against them.

Why don't you ask NRG? oh wait lol let's not go there.

Very well put. You've basically put on paper, what I had in my head. I think my idea to get rid of headshots was to thus bring the sniper forward and get him more "involved" in the action.

This might be the wrong approach. Perhaps turn him into more of a sniper, rather than some dude who can quickscope and dance around at the same time. Snipers should be slow, and very vulnerable if spotted. But this would really change the sniper's whole personality.

Uber have got an interesting problem to deal with here, and I honestly don't know what they'll do... if anything.