Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

So we have a thread here with a large number of people complaining that sniper is OP. Whatever sniper is, it's ruining the gaming experience of quite a few people.

Then we have a handful of pro sniper's who say nothing should be changed... really? Could you have guessed anything different?

Uber need to decide what is better for the majority of their player base. Clearly this many threads, and this many posts leads us to believe something is wrong. I guess the same could be said for assassin, but other than that, no other class seems to get this sort of attention.

In my personal opinion. MNC is not a twitch game like CS or CoD. Only the sniper can score a headshot. Doesn't that seem a little unfair? Why shouldn't I be able to headshot with my AR or railgun? I have fairly good aim from years of CS and now I have to throw that out the window? Fine. I honestly don't mind, as it's not that type of game (which is why I enjoy it), but the sniper headshot ability should be cut too. MNC is clearly designed to be a "get in the thick of it" action game. Setting up camp far from the action isn't in that spirit.

My nerf would be - remove headshots. Give them adjustable zoom.

A recent example would be Medal of Honor 2010, where on the PC they had to nerf one-shot kill upper-torso shots with the sniper rifle because people with a mouse were just far too effective. It made the game much more enjoyable for the rest after it was nerfed.

And to those who argue that ANY class can be OP in the right hands. Yes... but when I'm killed by a very good tank, gunner, assault, support, etc... I don't feel frustrated. They brought the fight to me, and I lost. With a sniper there was no fight. I just.... died. And sure, I could spend a large amount of time harassing or trying to kill the sniper, but that's just no fun.

Anyway. That's my opinion. And I have to REPEAT. 95% of snipers are terrible. This is not a hugely widespread problem........ yet.

While I agree with most of what you said, removing headshots is a terrible idea. It takes away the point of a Sniper. I feel that it shouldn't be such a quick process to scope in, make the shot, and shoot. I like the TF2 sniper alot, it felt like you didn't have a magic 1 shot kill gun from any distance. Maybe we could do something similar? Also make the scope take longer to get into full focus.

Those are my ideas on ways to fix the sniper without ruining him. And for added fun, let's give the Sniper tunnel vision after prolonged use of the scope

May I ask what you actually have up your sleeve to back up that claim?

Seriously saying "Every class is devastating in skilled hands, thus the game is balanced. No class is stronger than any other" without any remote explanation is a little stupid.

Let's give the Assault 3x his current health, and make his bombs available every 3 seconds. It's balanced because every class is devastating in skilled hands, and no class is any stronger than the others. Thus, the game is balanced and the Assault is not OP.

OMG.
AMAZING.
WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?!
I THINK UBER SHOULD IMPLEMENT THIS NOW.
IT'S SO BALANCED!

Seriously?

I'd kinda like someone on these forums to, for once, defend the Sniper class without saying something that can also be applied to a class with 20,000,000 health.
It'd be really nice.

"Oh yes, the game is balanced, thus the Sniper is not overpowered".
...
Christ. Talk about using your conclusion as a pretense.

Just because one class can destroy another class, doesn't mean that the match isn't one sided.

If we are talking about very skilled players with thier respective classes:The Sniper will destroy a Support trying to rush him down for the shotty kill, Sniper will beat a Gunner in a long distance battle, and Sniper will kill a tank before he can reach him for the kill. Not only that but a Sniper can give an Assault and an Assassin a very hard time and may win the battle depending on how accurate that sniper is at the moment. The Sniper simply shuts down too many classes.

To add, I agree with some people's thoughts that when you die by most classes at least you feel like you deserved it. Every other class has to take the fight to you and they take a gamble when they do so. Sniper has absolutely no competition most of the time which means he doesn't have to gamble for his kills. Sniper doesn't win games but he sure makes it damn hard to win...

WylieTimes, I like you.

The only feasible adjustment I can see being workable would be something along the lines of sniper not being able to choose armor endorsements at all. Make any damage actually hurt should you be able to hit them at their preferred distances.

Or if choosing an armor endorsement, reducing clip size/rate of fire/something else good, though this is not a very good way to accomplish a change.

EDIT: Or even just changing the armor endorsement for snipers to be an AP type function so bodyshots do 10/20/30% more damage to players with armor endorsements while still disallowing armor for the sniper himself.

Nerf the sniper's reload speed and "quickscope" speed. That would make everybody as happy as we could agree to be. We aren't agreeing right now, and as I said before, he will most likely ban me before we completely agree. I don't play the class, I simply play against it and will support anything that doesn't get me banned at this point. It will be easy for me to play against either way.

You are a god. I love you. Though we need something other than removing headshots, makes it like a noob class, like the Sydney Sleeper from TF2.

Bro what are you talking about? If you don't post here, they have nothing to ban you with correct?

Where is this large number of people? It's the same vocal few. Most people don't have a problem with sniper or Uber would have said something and fixed it by now.

It's mutual :3

On the subject of what nerfs I think should be implemented, I'm with you in the way that I want the Sniper to retain his skills and still be a very powerful force, but I of course would like him be restricted so he doesn't completely dominate games.

My list of tweaks is as such:

I'm hoping this would make everyone happy.
As a Sniper, I feel as if I could still play very effectively and display skill with these changes.
As a player who plays other classes, I feel this would give me the opportunity to fight back against a highly skilled Sniper, or at least escape if they miss their headshot.

And, when it comes down to it - I feel as if this Sniper still is far more versatile, unrestricted and fun to play than Snipers in other games.
I think that there is room for numerous strategies and builds for the Sniper, and opportunities to get better and better.

If I drop my arguement, they have nothing to warn me with. Yet, 8 minutes after I drop my arguement, I recieve a board warning. I have the PMs and times beside them to prove it.

Not to cause widespread panic, but they can ban anyone if it is their will. Try to behave. I will.

Did you also know that microsoft can stop supporting any paid downloadable content at any time? Seems to happen to me a lot. If you spend 800 MSP on a track pack that they took off of download, and need to redownload it for new console, they simply tell you they are not legally obligated.

Still, I buy my share of xbox live content. It is just worth it, as there is as much chance that microsoft is going to discontinue all their paid services without refund, as there is that the forums would ban someone that truely tried. So, I will try, and will forfeit to the arguement; A sniper could use a nerf and it wouldn't affect me directly anyway. The idea is fine.

Every class feels like you're working towards the frag.

Cept Sniper, oh, I managed to click on you from my spawn, you had no way to defend against it and no way of knowing it was coming.

There was no battle, just me, clicking on you.

Feels **** when you're sniped, you weren't outplayed and I'll laugh if anyone says sitting in spawn clicking on people is.

This is a big part of why I dislike playing against snipers, there was no battle.

Actually, it seems with each thread, more people are entering the fray against Snipers. Interesting.

Also, I love your begging of the question through circular logic.

-> If there was something unbalanced in the game, it would be removed.
-> There cannot be anything imbalanced in the game, as it has already been removed if it is.

It's actually common in religious debate.
"It says in the Bible that God exists. Since the Bible is Gods word, and God never speaks falsely, then everything in the Bible must be true. So, God must exist."

God said he exists. I believe it

However, I also believe a few taoist and buddhist things too :roll:

They can actually all coincide.

I have an aethiest friend too. God said to love people and treat them good unconditionally, even if they don't worship. Why don't most religious people practice that, and bang on people who don't worship? It's technically sin.

The way you guys talk is like you are getting spawn camped every single game by a sniper, but i put this to you.

You find evidence of a single sniper under level 50 who can even land consistant headshots, because an OP class would be able to turn the tide no matter the players skill level, you point out a single sniper whose newish to the game and can top leaderboards.

This isnt about a class being overpowered, this is about you guys getting outplayed, that dosent mean the sniper is a better player overall but you fell for whatever trick he was using at the time, from cross laning to ice trapping its just part of a snipers armoury, you have your own tactics, tricks and strategys to counter these, if you do not put them into action and blindly run down a lane or jump up the same jump pad into the same ice trap over and over and over that dosent make the sniper OP that makes you a slow learner.


Lets take Tastes previous video as an example, he was getting pinned down by a sniper as a gunner, everytime he tried to move down the lane he died, this was his attempt to show the sniper is OP, HOWEVER when he changed his tune and hopped off the front and jumped up behind the sniper he took him out no problems, so what if he had done this the first time he respawned? Suddenly the sniper dosent look quite so OP.


Learn and adapt dont come here posting crying threads because you couldnt work out a way to gank somebody, i see another arguement used frequently in these threads which is:

"But he has a team infront of him" or soemthing similar to that, so yes maybe i agree, a sniper with 5 guys infront of him is overpowered, but then following that logic, so is a gunner with a support spam healing him, or two assassins running together, teamwork dosent not equal overpowered.

1) not being camped in spawn, being camped at mid, while the snipers in their spawn

2) snipers can stop any attempt at bot pushing, FROM their spawn, and there is NOTHING you can do to stop them from killing your bots.. they can do so from the safety of their base, or at the very least, very close to it

3) BRAND NEW SNIPERS are not the problem, please stop using bad snipers as an argument, of course they are not going to be a threat.. But you cannot balance a class around its worst players.. you HAVE to balance it around its best.. and the best snipers in the game right now, can stop any attempt at taking down a money ball before over time, and can also pick off pros from across the map far too easily...

perhaps its a combination of too much power, too little draw back, and open as hell map design.. but regardless they are far too powerful as they are right now..

in a game that revolves around killing and defending your bots, no class should be the premier bot killier, and be able to do so from distance..

It would be one thing, if they were simply OP at killing pros, we would learn to avoid them and they would be neutered.. The problem is, they kill pros like no other, while still having a HUGE effect on the Bot lanes.. so you are forced to deal with them.. and they are doing this from their spawn.. picking off anyone who comes to mid.. they dont even have to push out of their initial camping spots, until the game is already on the decline for the enemy team..

Say what you will about an assassin ( I think they need work as well ) but atleast they have to be in the fight to effect it.

I think the biggest flaw in MNC is the same thing that causes so much sniper/assassin hate.

the game revolves around killing bots, and those 2 class's are far too good at it, without sacrificing safety.. Assassins have lunge, cloak, smokebomb to avoid death between bot lanes, and snipers can simply do it from their spawn.. they also both gain juice faster than any other class.

A tank is the best bot killer sure, but he has to be in the open to do it, and has no quick means of escape if pressured.. hes getting sniped at, shot at, bombed at.. hes simply not good enough at what hes supposed to do, which is threaten pros off of a bot lane.. because he has no way of stopping the sniper from killing the bot lane.. he can take railgun pop shots sure, but thats laughable.. and the sniper only needs 2 seconds to clea his bots, and than work on the pushing him back.. or just killing him..

The assassin can kill bots without fear of the sniper, because hes so fast, and only exposed for a few seconds.. and even if a tank is defending, hell simply shrukien..


Thats my 2 cents.. the two best bot killers are also the two hardest class's to kill if they are played right, you cant reach snipers, and the only time an assassin dies (honestly) is when he gets cocky and goes for a pro kill, when he should just go to the next set of bots, or shrukien... or if hes simply a new player.

I have been playing assassin a lot lately, and I go 0 deaths about 80 percent of the time, and even I know, that when I die, it was because I got cocky.. I should have lunge, dashed away into cloak, instead of trying to kill the gunner.. or I should have backed up and shrukiend.

And as a sniper, ive spent entire matches, from the initial spot, just murdering bots, killing pros and holding on to juice for the one time an assault gets the drop on me..


Lunge should be increased to 10 second cooldown, and snipers just need a lot of work in general.. These two classes are why most matches go to over time.. Bots have no chance of reaching the money ball unless the game is simply one sided..

hell make the sniper rifle not hurt bots for ****, but make his smg murder them.. there yeah go.. I know thats rediculous.. I know..

This is actually a pretty awful misconception that I see a lot in these threads too, which actually goes against the very idea of balance.

Overall balance, to be stupidly general, has nothing to do with skill. NOTHING.
At balance's most basic level, it is about the capabilities of one class, versus the capabilities of the others.
It is about the raw statistics of the classes. Not, the ability of the potential players behind them

Think of the classes as mere tools.
Imbalance is saying that one tool, is better than another.

For example, say MNC was actually a hammering contest. (Monday Night Carpentry ftw)
I am using the Mono Hammer Basic 100 - a very basic hammer.
You, might be using the Turbo Hammer Deluxe 9800 - a top of the line hammer.

Now, we might have a Hammer-Off, and, I might have years of experience with my basic hammer. You might hold your hammer upside down and accidentally smack yourself in the face with it more than you hit your nail.
So I might win, even with my little crappy hammer.
But it doesn't change the fact that I was using a far inferior hammer to yours. The tools are not equal by any stretch of the imagination.

If we relate this back to MNC, you can't rely on the notion that "If Sniper was OP, even low level players should dominate". It doesn't always work that way.

So, as we just saw, variable skill levels yielded no useful insight onto the quality of the hammers... so how would a Hammer company measure the strengths of each Hammer against each other?

They trial using two carpenters of equal strength and near perfect skill. So, if they used us again, we'd both have the same muscle strength, the same center of balance, and the same technique. And we'd both be at the peak of human hammering ability.
Remember how when you were bad at hammering you sometimes smacked yourself in the cranium? None of that, it's useless.
But even so, even if we were just pretty damn good carpenters, what if, had we just been a little better, we would have worked out a new hammering technique that revolutionised our abilities?

Nope, we need to be, near-perfect carpenters. As near to perfect as possible.
And it's at those high skill levels where you really get a feel for which hammer, which tool, or which class is better.
At peak skill situations is when you're measuring the tools themselves, rather than the people using them.

When you measure overall balance, you want to eliminate skill as a variable.

Boom.

Its Hammer-Time.

Lunge is fine as is. Her secondary is situational and her primary offense will always be her grapple and sword. It'd be kind of ridiculous for a class with low health and no reliable ranged damage on mobile targets to have no good way of getting in and out quickly. 10 seconds would be longer than an Assault's Charge cooldown, who suffers none of these limitations and can even use it while in the air.