Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

Whats wrong with

1) Freeze traps Slow greatly instead of freeze (allow jumping) while still putting skills on coodown.. Spint included, which stops lunge from sins

2) Aoe dmg no longer effects pros, still effects bots.


There, now the easy mode headshot from freeze traps and aoe spam into bot crowds are gone... Neither of which require any skill what so ever.. And neither should really piss off any good snipers.. as they can still clear bot lanes and kill pros just fine.. the only thing that changes is, no free kills from bot spam, and having to fall back a bit behind a flak when pressured, instead of just laughing as you take a free kill because they didn't see one of your 3 tiny ice mines.

I think that Goose has it right. What's needed is not an adjustment to the sniper, but more tools for other classes to harass him with. If you can force him out of his nest you can advance, bringing the fight back into your territory.

I, and I mean this is as honest as it gets, never genuinely understood how you could miss one of these buggers lying around.

Most Pub Snipers don't even bother to put them in harder to see spots or to paste them on a wall (where nobody ever looks)

Altering Explo-Shot would allow Supports to stand happily and uncontested in a corner, hugging their firebase which I personally don't consider to be a work of skill either; exploshot allows me to drive them mad (which is quite frankly the Job of a Sniper).

Okay, because i do prefer playing the game instead of reading these whine posts ill keep this short.

Flak - No more or less powerful than Assaults bomb, or supports mortarstrike, it denys you access to an area, they each do the job in different ways but the job they do is exactly the same.

Ice traps - Lunge, fly, charge, all of these will allow you to cross the icetrap and smack the sniper in the face at least once as long as your paying attention.

General defense - The sniper is made of paper, everybody knows this, look at him in the wrong way and he will crumble, he needs his skills for defense and even they are not even close to being 100%, Sniper has defensive skills, the other classes have offensive skills, go figure, your skills cancel out the snipers if you use them correctly.

Reload speed - the fact that you even mention this is truely laughable, i will agree to a reload speed decrease, match the snipers with the gunners, but give the sniper back his 10 bullet base clip first mmmkay?


Now lets look at Jessop's points about weaponry...

Railgun - Secondary weapon

Mortar - Secondary weapon

Grenade launcher - oh look... secondary weapon...


You are implying you want the sniper rifle brought down to be in line with the other classes secondary weapons or what?

You clearly have no idea about these weapons i mean, gunners mortar is only good if it catches you by surprise? How about you try and step into an area being bombarded by a gunner and shoot him in the face without the AoE turning you into a tasty sniper soup, not nearly as easy as it may look, the mortar is a fantastic area denial tool.

Railgun, you speak as if its supposed to be used like some kind of sniper rifle, popping people with 1 hit from across the map, the point of railgun is to take down enemys who manage to get out of range from the jetgun, and to harrass people at distance to keep them busy while you close the gap.

Dont play much assault so i couldnt comment on the grenade launcher.



And the biggest point that youve missed out completely? Turret killing... it takes 3 uses of flak level 3 to take down a level 2 rokkit turret, assuming theres no support there, 2 if you pummel it with sniper shots for a good solid minute during the flak times.

As a sniper its almost pointless to even try and kill a level 3 rokkit turret, your looking at 4-5 uses of flak level 3...


Yes, the sniper can really lay out some punishment against pros, but this isnt deathmatch, there is an objective to achieve and any team with a little coordination and the good sense to build turrets can really make the snipers chances of achieveing that objective rather slim.


So yea, before you post next time, remind yourself that this ISNT deathmatch and pure pro killing power is not the only thing that affects the game.


P.S.

This is only like half the things i could mention, i didnt even go into counter classes, or using cover, shame on me.

Please no, neither of these fixes actually fix the issues with the Sniper. 2 of them would make the Sniper far less versatile. One would upset game balance completely.

Your proof?
I could say the exact same thing if we gave the Sniper double health and speed, the Assault Rifle as his SMG, and the Assault's Bomb.
"Most of these people tend to forget that each character fits into a certain role and is not necessarily meant to kill thousands of people (like the Sniper).
If you take the roles of the individual pros into the equation and assume that they all do their job perfectly you will soon figure out that there is balance to be had."

It's pretty much like saying
"Hey, it doesn't matter how well Snipers can kill players, as that's what they're supposed to do! Working as intended!"
Screw it, let's give the Tank an Aura that kills every enemy bot that spawns from across the map.
"The Tank is supposed to be good at killing bots! The other classes have different jobs so it's balanced!"

No.
I'm not gunna lie guys, I'm getting tired of this.
Sure, you all have to listen to people complaining about Snipers over and over, but I have to rebut non-sequitur.

I'm getting sick of "[insert random nonsensical words here] thus the Sniper is balanced!"

The job of a sniper is to kill people around corners?

See this is my point.. that should NOT be the snipers job.. nor should that niche scenario be why you cant touch any of the snipers precious skills.

Nerf ROF? Nope i kill bots with it.
Nerf AOE? Nope I kill supports around corners with it.
Nerf Quickscope? Nope I kill people who get close to me with it.
Nerf Ice trap? Nope you should be able to see it because most bad snipers don't hide them where you can.

Come on man... did you really just use what most "bad" snipers do, to justify a skill? they are pretty easy to hide, and not nearly as easy to spot as you say, when you are dodging ROF 3 quick scopes and keeping and eye out for other pros.

You should NOT be able to kill the support around the corner as a sniper, from across the freaking map while the support has no way of fighting back.. thats the very definition of over powered, and completely out of the realm of a sniper. There are plenty of class's that can do that.. like the assault who can bomb him out, or the gunner who can mortar him out.. or the tank with a support of his own.. hell an assassin can smoke bomb the turret and any one can flush him out..

As it stands, you seem to be ok with every thing in the game dying to a sniper whos across the map perfectly safe behind 3 ice traps and 2 feet from cover? Heck you actually argue my suggestion based on him NEEDING to be able to kill the most defensive stationary class in the game, from around a freaking corner..

I mean Come on man..

They are the only weapon that can actually reach a Sniper in his nest. Try to hit him with the AR or minigun across the map if you like. You will find it rather hard to hit him though.

Hold on.. you quote me out of turn there man..

1) AOE damage not effecting players, is a mater of opinion. You say it would make him less versatile, but I argue that it changes nothing.. He can still switch between targeting pros and bots with no changes.. he just doesn't get to do both at the same time.. killing pros and bots at the same time isn't versatility.. its having his cake and eating it too. You may not agree, and thats fine.. A lot of people are under the impression that snipers are supposed to be good at everything.. which I don't agree with.. right now theres nothing they cant do.. And the only answer to them is "well stay out of their site" and with explosive shot that doesn't even work. So now I guess its gonna be

How do you counter a good sniper? Oh simple, stay out of his line of site at all times, and don't go anywhere near bots, look for his tiny ice mines at all times, because if you hit one you will be head shot within 2 seconds.. Avoid his AOE, because its the most powerful in the game.. oh and if you get the drop on him.. RUN because you can almost be sure he has a full bar of juice on stand by.. they build juice faster than any class you know.. So do all that and they aren't even a factor.. they are actually kinda under powered.. because they can just be avoided pretty easily.. as soon as the game starts just avoid hitting leaving spawn.

2) I didn't say buff assassin or assault and leave it at that.. I said ONE, chose assassin, and set out a very specific change, that would only effect his ability to deal with ice traps.. and even than suggest several ways to do it.. You may not have agreed with them, but don't quote one sentence ignore the rest and than comment.. its not fair to the point I was making.

This isn't meant to be offensive or trolling in any way, shape or form, just something to think about.

Have any of you "Sniper is overpowered" people ever actually faced Assaults like OD, who continues to harass you all-game while bringing his team and bots forward?

Have you ever played higher level opponents that are supposed to keep you in check, do you genuinely believe you are qualified to make balance claims?

Before tinygod jumps in on this: this is not a "competitive" argument as I only played OD on pub so far - changing that soon though.

It's a back and forth - even with my ability as Sniper which are said to be rather alright - playing against people like him and in my humble eyes that is what I can balance.

Looking at theoretical sheets of paper saying "ok this looks pretty bad" is one thing, actually putting it to practice for prolonged amounts of time facing people of a similar or higher skill is another.

I'm not trying to defend Sniper for the sake of stirring up something, or for the sake of retaining my power (as I stated elsewhere I'm no longer Sniper for my team). I am trying to prevent people from trying to push him into a niche-role.

As far as I see it each Pro does 2 things per average.

Assault? kills pros, kills turrets, not too great at pushing bots
Support? takes care of base, takes care of pros, not too great at pushing bots
Sniper? kills pros, kills bots, not too great at wasting turrets
Gunner? kills pros, kills turrets, not too great at pushing bots (good juice source though)
Assassin? Kills bots, kills turrets, can take out individual targets at a time but not main issue
Tank? kills bots, kills pros, crowd control, also somewhat decent at taking out turrets

Based on teams of similar skill it works out in my opinion and fiddling with one thing or another bears implications that most would not be able to fathom, or as Bro put if Sniper gets reduced he would destroy Pubs as Gunner until people come back asking for a revert.

Should we fall into the vile spiral of flavour of the month balance it will be very hard to break out of it and as of now I don't see any fundamental flaw that warrants such behaviour.

While my tone is not what most people would consider sincere and kind I still think about what I say, when I post it's mostly masked in arrogant, deceiving or derogatory terms purely to snub them - maybe they'll learn something.

My sunday sermon

I don't see why we can't test balancing changes or a Sniper nerf. This is not the Xbox version. If a nerf was too large it can be adjusted on short notice with little consequence. Best examples are the nerf to the Tanks railgun clip size. VALVe doesn't care about the number of updates. It takes 24 to 48 hours to get a new patch online as far as I know.

I don't want the Sniper gone, some of my friends play a fierce Sniper and I don't want their main class nerfed into the ground. But I want enjoyable pub matches on all maps for players of all classes, not just on Lazer Razor.

I don't understand the argument of: If you do that you change the sniper, so you can't do that. Thats the whole point.. the sniper needs some changes.

The main thing making snipers OP right now is that most people playing assault or assassin don't do their job, probably thinking the gunners and tanks in their team are so terrible for dying all the time and never pushing.

They won't go for that sniper because it's not a sure kill, and they might even die which will make them look bad on the scoreboard, so instead they do what the tank & gunners should do, kill bots and turrets, thinking they're doing all the work while in fact they don't do their part which prevents the rest of their team from doing anything.

And I'm saying that from a sniper, gunner and tank point of view, I play often thoses classes and while I'm clearly not an aiming beast I often get some silly scores as sniper (think my best must be 47/4 or something like that), because I almost never get attacked. In fact the biggest threat most of the time would be other snipers.

Assassins job is to clear bot lanes and kill turrets.. not kill snipers..

and no assault is going to spend the entire game, ducking weaving, charging, jumping, sneaking to get to a sniper who is most likely going to freeztrap/flak 2 feet back into his spawn, count to 20 and go back out...

as it is right now, the only counter to a long range OHK class, is a long range OHK class. If he didnt have a spawn to fall back to 20 paces away on almost every map, and cover to fire from that still gave him the best angles, it would be different. But he does..

So it comes down to whos sniper is better.. 1 person determining the entire battle field..

I think sniper is a balance concern, albeit a minor one. I think the key problem is that no class counters him directly, whereas a lot of other classes have fairly direct counters. A good sniper can control open areas slightly too well. On a similarly unfortunate note, bad snipers are some of the worst players in the game. They contribute very little and any change that reduces snipers power level makes them even worse (can a player be worth a negative value?!?). If it were me designing it, I'd make assault the counter for him. I would make assault rifle bullets cause his aim to kick ever so slightly whenever he is hit with one, allowing him to be "suppressed". This kick should be in random directions (not always up like TF2s sniper). I would do this because assault doesn't directly counter anything and this would tie in well with his flight and charge for a more direct counter. This doesnt affect bad players that much, as they were going to miss pros anyway. Hopefully they were shooting at bots, and this means that even if the assault is kicking their aim it wont matter that much if they continue to do so with their 8 damage max range bullets not doing anything noticeable to the sniper for some time. This will cause good players to miss pros (or at least miss headshots, which is the key issue), and it will allow for an element of teamwork that lets a team at least attempt to retake an open space (if only for the time being).

However, I don't expect that to happen. In its stead, I think his health should be reduced by 50 (down to 250 from 300). This would make him the weakest class in the game by default, and it might cause many snipers to reconsider their endorsement setup. It makes assassin a more direct counter to him. This means that silver armor will no longer allow a sniper to take 3 body shots (dying at 2 instead). This also means that if an assassin is able to pull off a back-lunge on an un-armored sniper he will die. A sniper would need gold armor to survive a sword front grab.

I think that no class is as *potentially* good as the sniper the can be, and I'm not sure I would want that to change. What I would like to see changed is degree to which he is separated from his fellow pros in this regard.

At least when most other classes kill you, you know it's because you got outplayed, or you weren't paying attention, or they got lucky and you'll get them next time

The sniper is just so disconnected from the actual game. Getting killed by him feels like you're dying to some outside force that you can't do anything about. Sure you can increase your chances by moving constantly and taking cover when possible. But unless you cower in a corner the whole game, a good sniper will still repeatedly drop you dead without a fight. Getting killed by a sniper doesn't feel much different than getting killed by a random number generator or an internet connection problem.

Even if it's balanced, it's not fun

Once you shun your pre-conceptions about what is fun and what isn't you will find peace.

Players will continue to abuse their powers until they will be countered, to spin the wheel anew.

Most people hate his possibility to get one-hits from seemingly any distance, by closing the distance you lower his chances of scoring it (for some it's the inverse, depends on the Sniper at hand) and you'll force the player to play in a different fashion.

As much as you keep distance to a Gunner, as much as you bring yourself in your personal sweet spot as much you need to bring the fight to the Sniper.

Drawing the analogy to Quake here where you need to pick your weapon according to the situation - keeping distance when you have a railgun and the enemy doesn't for example - you will need to play according to the situation.

For all those times where you cannot be bothered to improve as player in MNC you can just create a server with a Sniper limit of 0, for likeminded people.

For some fun arises through outplaying opponents, outplaying a Sniper is part of that - should you feel he is disconnect -> connect him. Leave him uncontested and face the consequences for he will continue to put bullets in you.

As I said once or twice before, the error lies not within the system but within the player who denies to acknowledge the patterns and rhythm of MNC's microcosm.

For the rest: continue to dance.

Blessings upon all of you

If you think assassins should be controlling the lanes, while tank & gunners try to get rid of snipers themselves instead of denying the lane to thoses squishy assassins they can pretty much instagib, I understand better why you think snipers & assassins are OP.

The only real problem of the Sniper, the one that makes many people think the game is less fun at times, me included, is the mechanics of the rifle. So, all suggestions about nerfing his secondary abilities, short distance combat talents, traps, bot farming AOE explosion and so on, are only woresening the case. So problem not solved.

Yes, I agree, this is the most delicate par to tune, because the rifle is the essence of Sniper. However, something could be done at that level :

- Quickscope : you have many choices. Remove it completely or make it less precise or make it count as body shot even if head is touched. Is it really that unfair ? If you managed to get very close, you deserve some sort of fight. Quickscope headshot is not fight, its bullshit.

- Fullscope : add a little sway, or some sort of deploy delay, or lower RoF. I mean, choosing one of those options does not ruin the class at all. It would only diminish the lucky headshots and deny "spray and pray" technique as it was already said.

Yes, it may raise the skill floor a bit which is already higher than for example a Gunner, but so what ? Less people will choose to play it and that's it. Those hardcore gamers will still do fine and the others will pick another class. The game returns to fun for everyone.

WHAT?! Oh my god, i didnt realise...

Ofcourse, all classes designed for close range combat should be able to destroy the sniper at long ranges, how foolish of me not to realise this!


Dont be ridiculous jessop, the fact is that all of those classes primary weapons can make mince meat of a sniper at close range.

This argument doesn't fly. Jetpack nerf was horrible, even you stated you have switched to assault. It still hasn't been reverted. Very few decent players even play heavy classes now because it's not fun at all.