Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

Where do you get this stuff from tinygod?!

A sniper can consistantly quickscope headshot a very good assault?

No, just no, that dosent happen, a good assault kicks a snipers ***, even if he dosent kill he doesnt die either, and he forces the sniper off his perch and puts massive pressure on him.

Maybe a very good sniper can quickscope an average assault but bullshit can they score consistant headshots on a very good assault

Where do I get this stuff from? Where do you?

Serioulsy, I dont think you know what I'm talking about, when I say a "great sniper" You keep arguing this ASSAULT COUNTERS SNIPER point. But you fail to grasp, that snipers very in skill.

A decent sniper, will miss against an assault. A great one, wont. Its not about speed, movement, flying, alltitude drops. There is no timer on quick scoping. Its instant. He lines up the shot and press's mouse2 > Mouse 1. It doesnt matter that the assault was ducking and weaving, and charing in. All the sniper needs is clear line of site, he gets 4 attempts before a reload.. And a great one only needs about 2 attempts. The best only need 1.

Decent snipers are thrown off by movement, great ones are not.. Sure if he were scope tracking, it would be easy to loose him, as all you have to do is get to the edge of his scope, but when he is tracking you unscoped, lining the shot unscoped than taking it unscoped (quick scope is not a scoped shot) it is a different ball game.


The fact that you say a good assault kills a sniper or pressures him everytime, leads me to believe we are not talking about the same sniper.

I'm not saying the sniper you see every game, nor am I talking about the one you see on average. This is not about 95% of the games you play. I'm talking about the 5% of the community of snipers that "IS THAT GOOD" and that is what we have to balance around man.

Point is, a .3 second delay on quickscope is not going to effect 95% of the snipers in the game, they wont even notice a change in their KD/R.

Its only going to hurt the 5% that are actually capable of abusing the current quick scope mechanic on any type of consistant level.

i'm growing tired of arguing this point, simply to be told, "snipers can't do that", no.. the truth is "you can't do that", and the snipers you are fighting on average "can't do that" but the mechanics allow for it, and there are snipers out there that can. And those are who we have to balance around.

You keep arguing this, as if you were the president for balance. Your sig implies you believe yourself to be a top level sniper. Let me tell you, if you aren't making consistant quick scopes on assaults. Than you are NOT the sniper we need to balance around.

People can't get over the fact that they may not be 'all that good'. And they bring the beliefe that they are into balance arguments. You think, well assaults kill me or pressure me all the time, so snipers are fine. Thats not nessecerily true. We are arguing the tools that are available. The current mechanics allow snipers, to make unscoped headshots, with bonus damage, instantly.. They can make these attempts quickly, due to endorsements raising an already high rate of fire, and they can make more than 4, if they take clip size endorsements. On top of this, they have the ability to farm juice QUICKLY across multiple bot lanes, to deny attempt to push bots, without sacrificing safety, to defend themselves against approach using flak and freeze traps.

My point is, the top 5%, are going to get you. Good luck spoting well hidden freeze traps, dodging them, avoiding flak and still managing to avoid being quick scoped, while you close the gap to get the bomb off on him. Because even if you do close the gap, hes gonna side step off a wall to his turrets and friendly pros, look up and continue making quick scope attempts, while you have even more to try and doge. Thats if you even make it that far.

A truly great sniper spends about 10% of his game play in a scope. Thats something to remember.

Tinygod what you are saying may have a point but Coord belongs to the upper 5%, just saying.

Than he is not being honest with himself, when it comes to balance, for the sake of keeping the current mechanics.

I think any Sniper in the top 5%, already knows what we are discussing. Its great to make quick scopes, its an awesome tool, and in NO WAY does it NOT require skill. It is a highly skillful technique that is NOT accomplishable by 95% of the snipers out there. But it is overpowered.

We either need to reduce the damage from quick scopes, the way TF2 requires scope time for max damage. Not reduced so much that they are worthless, but rather reduced by about half their normal damage, to stop OHK quick scopes. OR we need to add a slight delay from press to scope, to give the faster class's the advantage they are supposed to have up close.

I'm trying to be a civil as possible, and I realize that it is not easy to balance ANY class that revolves around a One Hit Kill mechanic, but never the less, any class that is capable of achieving a OHK needs to be balanced carefuly, to keep the game fair.

What you just said makes no sense whatsoever. No at all there is of sense in your statement. It should be emphasized more, but boy do I want to waste my time any longer. You may be a god of some sort, tiny as it is, but claiming the existence of human aimbot is beyond retardness and you have just made me lose my faith in people.

Exactly. If I was being wreckless and exposed myself to Snipers LoS, I deserve being headshot, BUT if he missed that headshot, I deserve the chance to at least charge to hide. Today, the second shot comes a second later. Its too fast. I stoped counting when after the first miss, I press charge immediately and land dead anyways.
Both ideas of increased delay between shots or decreased damage on QS deserve testing.

what are you talking about? Human aimbot is not the same as a skilled player taking advantage of a mechanic that essentially removes the scope from the equation at ranges closer than medium.

Honestly, I think you didn't have any arguments to make, so decided to simply be snyde.

The advantage they have when they are that close is added maneuverability, jumping (to not stay in a scope that has an FOV of 10), dodging, stutterstepping, what have you etc.

Introducing a scoping delay for the sake of easing up the close quarter combat is ultimately gimping long-range engagements where you see that head pop out for a second, or that assassin who thought that smokebombjumping was a good idea. Those 300ms (as per your suggestion) will gimp me more than a reduction of RoF ever could. If I nail that first shot sigmars mentioned then I should have it be a headshot no matter what, "oh sorry you shot faster than 300ms you can't have that be a headshot".

On a side note, not sure how this would play out but has anybody considered making sniper bullets louder?

It seems odd but, it would achieve several things, firstly if your hit bodyshot by one, your going to know about it, straight away, that was a sniper, must dodge.

Secondly it would alert anybody near the lane that the sniper is there watching over it, the sniper dosent need to be hidden, it has been discussed already that snipers defenses are strong so being hidden really isnt a neccesity as long as your aware of your surroundigns and not getting tunnel vision, so then people wouldnt simply wander blindly into LoS, they would use cover to find the snipers perch and work around him.

Just a thought anywho.


P.S. My signature is a personal take on a quote taken from a football manager, (Im awful at names so i cant remember who exactly) but is but a joke <3.

This is the second long Sniper thread that has needed to be locked because people can't seem to have a civil discussion.

The Sniper is being looked at. Expect changes "soon".