Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

"Sorry i forgot to add into my post, you cannot pinpoint an issue with the sniper that can be fixed without making him 100% unviable for anything but sitting in the spawn shooting at bots.

You take away his headshots you dont leave a balanced class, you leave a severely underpowered class."


Bull
S***.

Like I said way back when, the answer is going to be "Wah, I'm going to have to work for a frag."

I'd like to point out I'm not necessarily anti-sniper. I'm doing testing of my own to decide which side of the debate I'll stand at.

I do maintain that if there is a nerf, a reload speed change or a limitation to accuracy until fully scoped(but not both, that would be kind of terrible) are the most reasonable out of the suggestions I've seen thus far. It would still allow him powerful area denial tools while providing a slightly larger opening for players to get the drop on him, in the case of the reload speed(which I prefer out of the two). The limitation to accuracy until fully scoped keeps snipers from keeping fully mobile and seeing everything while still receiving the benefits of 100% accuracy and maximum damage output. I would dislike this, as I play a more mobile sniper than most.

Scoring 6 perfect shots without missing for a single frag, at least two of those shots having to be headshots to stand a chance of keeping the target in your LoS is not working for a frag, because you wont get the frag unless you have an aimbot, there would be no fragging capability there to work with.

But hey i guess thats just tank, lets have a look at the other classes shall we?

Assassin, gets shot once, hits smoke bomb and disapears.

Support, would he even be in the lane?, nonetheless sure, what do you think, 4 shots? 1 headshot which would ofcourse have to be the first shot to make time for the others, thats doable if he were in the centre of a lane on ammo mule with nowhere to run and no bots to move behind.

Assault, already the hardest class to really kill consistantly, extremely mobile, with charge, fly, and a decent chunk of health again needing 4 shots to kill.

Gunner, again i suppose if you waited until he was in the centre of the lane then opened with a headshot followed by 3-4 other body shots you could get him, although his jetpack would have to be on cooldown obviously.

other snipers, you hit them once, they sidestep into cover, no sniper ever kills another sniper ever again.



Ofcourse all of this is entirely dependant on the idea that when they get hit they dont pummel you with grenades, mortars, airstrikes and any other pieces of debris they can find on the floor to throw at you while they wait for you to get on and damage them.

Also dependant on having 100% perfect aim under pressure, and then also after emptying 1, to 1 and a half clips into a player to get the kill (because obviously theyre travelling solo) you can then turn your attention to bots. swarming over your lane.

So, you missed that other post I made hmm?
That's nice.

Page 22, you're three pages behind friend.

I'll say that Sniper juice generation is too easy (same with Assassin but this isn't a 'sin thread). The class literally sits in spawn (or a breath away from it) for the entire game using its long distance weapon to take down bot lanes and effortlessly, safely, generate juice.

Why, then, does the Tank's railgun generate practically zero juice when it functions so similar to the Sniper rifle? Obviously the railgun generates very little juice because you're able to dominate bot waves from afar, but the Sniper is the same story, yet sees "standard" juice generation for the rifle.

Snipers honestly shouldn't generate juice as fast as they do. It's stupidly broken for a class that can literally sit in spawn and mow down bot lanes until they have enough juice to push the lanes even further. The juice generation for the Sniper's rifle should be basically the same as the Tank's rail gun -- ie, PRACTICALLY ZERO GENERATION -- because a Sniper is able to survive much much much longer than most other classes. This survival rate was CLEARLY kept in mind for balancing the Tank's railgun juice generation rate but is completely absent from the sniper rifle's juice generation rate. Why?????

Also, all of your anecdotals don't matter. BroTranquility, just because you dominated 3 shitty *** snipers as Gunner doesn't mean Snipers are fine. It means your opponents blew enough to get dominated by the class they have a leg up on. Also, quoting a 3 Sniper team game as an actual amount of evidence? Really? 3 Snipers or 3 Assassins are pretty much a significant push over team because they lack the ability to brute force push the lanes and dominate the moneyball in overtime. Assassins are Snipers are crucial, crucial support to their teams, but when they make up half (or more) of the team composition they quickly become wastes of space.

I think youll find that a gunners main juice comes from his jet gun, seeing as hes a close range class...

Na na na fischbs, you've got it all wrong.
You see, HE ONLY HAS HEADSHOTS, NOTHING ELSE, NOTHING.

Hey at least your keeping this mature.

Unless you havent noticed the snipers main kills come from his rifle, this abilities and skills being defensive.

Says the guy complaining about big words, not reading posts and putting words in peoples mouthes.

His "abilities" include a one shot kill at any range headshot.
Very defensive.

Abilities = skills = yellow blue red and grey skills.

Clutching at straws certainly springs to mind, especially seeing as we were discussing a suggestion completely removing the OHKO headshots.


Seeing as you are simply taking my posts out of contexts, I am but a human, if i miss a post or do not respond i do apologise.

However, seeing as you seem to have run out of arguements and simply resorted to personal attacks I will no longer be responding to your future posts, so you are now aware of that fact.

Infact i would suggest that this thread be locked, theres clearly nothing more to gain from it.

Seeing as how you didn't respond to the last one argument wise while proclaiming yourself amazing like it invalidates anything else others say I don't see how or why I should care what you think.

There's plenty to gain from it, you and I aren't everyone, stop being so selfish.

Apparently you think anything but a one shot kill head shot makes the sniper underpowered.

I don't.

At a two shot kill, which he can place from the safety of spawn if he so chooses, while eating up juice he's still incredibly potent and it eliminates all the frustration he causes with the instant kill, which may or may not have been spammed.

People's tempers are running quite high on both sides of the argument, let's try and keep this mature. From everyone, I am not singling anybody out.

This.

I like Tempted's idea of 600hp damage when hitting the head. This would kill armor-less assassins and sniper's right? It would still be a very potent threat for the gunner and assault (depending on endorsements).

I still don't get why we don't remove quickscoping? A 200ms delay for full accuracy when scoped plus a loss of accuracy when moving (much like CS).

Because a delay has no effect on most snipers who sit near spawn and camp all day. It only hurts snipers who like to push up and help the team. You know, the 'useful' snipers.

Except even when people have suggested buffs + nerfs you shoot em down if it forces you to change your gameplay style even incrementally.

I'm a rather mobile Sniper, reducing quickscoping or headshot damage below 800 (gold armour assault) will deny me from doing just that - I'd be toast everywhere I go. It would practically force me to stay put and camp stuff out; read: that type of sniper nobody likes.

Without this possibility of a OHKO (be it clutch or not) Gunners and Assaults would just toy around with us like a cat with a thread of wool. Right now we put up a fight, as do they. Go ahead with your theoretical suggestion non-sense and play against masters of these classes - It's a fight not "lol you are dead now".

Good Sniper versus Good Gunner - constant back and forth. He'll chuck mortars at you keeping you on your feet, standing around for longer than 1 second means certain death - We have to hit a perfect shot to get rid of him to be able to move up.

Good Sniper versus Good Assault - again a constant back and forth. don't pay attention to that assault for a tiny amount of time and you'll eat a bomb which will either result in swift death or a ring-out.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showt ... p?t=100136 for some sort of sense.

Or drawing a nice analogy to people here, when new players start out most are annoyed by the assassin. Some come here and complain and we tell them "play more, you will see" and in most cases it is exactly what is needed.

Now certainly, as you all like to say every now and then, you are beyond this point (maybe tinygod isn't because he still says sin is overpowered) and this is where it gets interesting. You come here complaining that the Sniper is annoying, overpowered and we tell you "play more, do it like this, there is no issue" and when you do that all hell breaks loose.

"But an assassin has to get in the fight", yeah ever seen an assassin pull off a perfect lunge-grapple? The timeframe on dodging that is about the same for a player getting out of headshot angles unless he is over-extending.

Truth be told most pub snipers are at least somewhat capable of killing people, most (accusation) aren't capable of winning the game as Sniper though - they just turn it into something you like to call not fun. Here is this one suggestion again: bring the fight to them and it won't be an issue.

"But they have a team in front of them" the amount of times you complain about the Sniper instead of the team in front of me leads me to believe that most of you don't consider that very team to be an issue, so why should it suddenly be an issue when you need to get past that team to kill an "issue".

May expand this later, just some stuff to think about.

I'll try to add a non-biased opinion in this thread. Two things:

- I played Sniper for the first time two days ago, had absolutely no idea what to do and when. However, I was really surprised how easy it was to get kills, and how headshots would pop really often. I was on top of scoreboard for my second match, with a 10-1 KDR or so. Quickscoping is a joke, I can kill a jumping Gunner at mid range with incredible ease. I also found SMG to be a really strong weapon, had my share of kills with it too. Ice traps and grapple are an amazing protection vs sins. I didn't notice any real weakness when playing him.

- Second thing: we had a discussion on Steam with Uncle about Sniper vs Assault a few days ago. He suggested me to try a really aggressive approach when playing vs a Sniper as an Assault. I gave it a try and have to say it's rewarding. I was able to totally block a lvl 80+ Sniper on Ammo. Did not get a lot of kills from him, but I forced him to retreat in his base a lot of times. The idea was to flank him with GL by switching lanes like crazy, and harass him with AR when getting closer. I still need to find the best strategy on GIII though (I'm not a huge fan of bomb jumping, I dislike the idea of having to hurt myself to gain the edge)

So, to sum up, my opinion is that Sniper is really, really powerful, and has a lot of (too many?) incredibly useful tools at his disposal. He has no real weakness, except for his low life, which is balanced by the fact that he can safely cover most of the map without really moving from his spawn. On the other hand, an Assault can be the perfect counter to him, if he focuses on him during the whole round.

TL;DR? Sniper is powerful, but so is Assault

Was my unbiased opinion too. I was called to inexperienced on MNC for Steam to have an opinion though. That was very friendly of them to do.

I figure, why not nerf the sniper at this point. Wish people would just learn to play against them. I have seen better snipers on xbox still. Just because some people can get headshots quickly on linear/stationary targets, doesn't mean headshots are totally reliable at any range and any time.

By getting headshots quickscope mid-range, you must have played sniper some time, even on other games. Nobody picks up a protractor with no prior experience and starts doing calculus. That is about as good as any sniper gets, grimbar a little better. Still say assault is better.

When the sniper gets nerfed, please make sure to nerf assault moneyball damage. If anyone here knew anything about game balance, they would have mentioned that. Big time. It is game breaking, and needs around a 30% reduction. Afterwards, can we cut back on nerfing everything and anything that you stub your toe on? Hey, let's hit each other with nerf bats till we do 0 damage!

I didn't mention "headshots quickscope"