Let's have a mature discussion about the Sniper and Balance.

I'm not even reading the rest, most of you people are saying an utter bullshit just for the sake of arguing, proving you are better than yourselves (as in, you are not better than any other person in here) or convincing the devs brainless fun is what counts here. If you don't know, close range is full of traps, flak grenades, turrets and teammates, get a ******* grenade launcher, stand a mile away and use it. Just ******* press the mouse1 button and spam the guy if you don't want to upgrade a bomb, sneak up near his position, use it and charge away.

THINK.

When I think about people gren launching me I think about headshotting them because they're in my LOS.

What do you think about?

"Stand a mile away", so, stand at the perfect distance for him to have all the advantage?
I see.

"oooo we can harass him"

Yea, well he can kill you, I'm done, it's clearly obvious no one has any reason why the headshot shouldn't be nerfed and rebuffed differently, it has been four pages and no response.

Enjoy exploiting your broken game mechanic, I know I will at some point, it's just too easy to pass up.

I've been playing sniper to guage his effectiveness of late. I'm not nearly good enough to judge yet, but I can say that the SMG and flak are greatly underestimated, and quickscopes even happen for a pubber like me. Coupled with good positioning, map awareness and an ability to more consistently land headshots....

I do not yet know if he is overpowered, but I am starting to get an inkling of what a vice grip he can hold over a team if left unchecked; it's hard to bring him into a vulnerable position if he knows you're coming.

How many posts have there been through this thread explaining when and how assaults can kick snipers about?

But as i said you simply ignore those posts because it does not conform to your way of thinking, because in your universe every sniper is running an aimbot and landing 100% headshots even when quickscoping at close range.

The fact of the matter is, you take away snipers headshot and suddenly hes massively underpowered, that stun thing is ridiculous, you stun anybody and they will simply charge/lunge out of the area and into cover, a tank can take 5-6 bodyshots to kill, my clip only has 4 bullets, so what your suggesting is that, to kill a single player what i have to do is as follows:

Headshot, bodyshot bodyshot bodyshot, reload, presumably headshot again because the stun will have worn off, and then another body shot to finish up.

I need to get that done, in the what... 2.5 seconds i have before he makes cover? yea thats a well thought through plan bro.


The funniest thing is, you have actually missed the most obvious nerf that would drop snipers strength and still keep them balanced, despite the fact i do not believe they warrant such a nerf, put a range to damage ratio on their gun.

Simple as that, if the enemy is within 10 yards damage from rifle is 1/3, within 30 yards its halved, above that its just as it always has been.

Ofcourse this will simply promote snipers back camping but seeing as we literally cannot win this arguement due to you guys going "HES TO STRONG AT RANGE!" and were like, so get in close and pwn him and its followed by "HES TO STRONG CLOSE UP!" so this nerf would not stop the tears, infact it would probably only increase them because you would get even fewer sniper kills because we wouldnt be able to ever effectively push forewards out of our base.

But with all that said it is a perfect nerf on paper, allowing snipers to really kick *** at long range as they should and make them paper cups reliant almost solely on their supposedly also over powered skills at close range.



Now obviously in actual terms it dosent really work at all because, despite your big ol posts going on about how hard it is to approach a sniper the reality is quite the opposite, even the best sniper can be flanked with ease, the only map this is tricky on is spunky for obvious reasons.

So how about for a second you open your eyes, drop your pride and realise that, if you actually put in any amount of effort, teamwork or simply be aware of your surroundings instead of charging headlong into the same lane the sniper is watching over and over then perhaps you would realise sniper isnt quite as strong as youd like to think.

But hey what do i know, im probably just posting in blind support of snipers and havent put any thought into the situation at all.

Ohhh wait---





P.S. Before you counter with "But the sniper can swap lanes and cover the whole map super easy" consider the fact that, a moving sniper is a vunerable sniper, to move from one perch to the next means you have to lose your all encompassing omniscient LoS (See, i can use big words to!) and travel without being protected by mines, perhaps even crossing lanes past bots, and are more than susceptable to any number of bombs, traps, miniguns, charge attacks all of which will OHKO you or at the least leave you ripe for an amusing Mickey Cantor slimbot joke.

Try to quote who you're responding to, I can't seem to understand if you're misinterpreting my post or speaking to someone further up the page.

I'm sorry? I thought he was a bot killer.
Isn't that what everyone says?

"you stun anybody and they will simply charge/lunge out of the area "

Yea, that's the point...
So you can go back to your bot fragging.

Oh, you still want to eat your cake and have it to?
How surprising.

Apologies i missed how many posts had gone before ^^, my post was directed towards tempted in particular and all anti-sniper players in general <3.

And that is why we get nowhere, because you cannot discuss 1 game mechanic without another being pulled into it, althought Tempted's response there was a little extreme on the segway or lack thereof, but hey thats how it goes.

Sniper isn't as weak up close as you proclaim. You know where your ice traps are, any potential aggressor does not and during fighting will not be able to spot them.

Certainly this takes time to set up but it is not an insurmountable cost with the capability of an instant resolution in your favor.

Grapple and Flak are pretty ... whatever. Annoying but not too outlandish relative to other skills. Ice traps on the other hand are crazy good even post PC nerf.

Potential changes would be to make the traps themselves the size of sticky bombs in TF2, provide some audible cue to hear where they are located or just making them less effective against charge type skills.

Personally I lost all interest when you brought up using "big words" like it's some type of suspicious crime.

((You mean at the end of my post tempted? another brilliant observation from you there.))

yea, they would charge out of the area if you landed a clean headshot followed by succesful body shots without missing, and thats just the tank, say you body shot an assault, it takes what... about a 1/4 of his hp away assuming its not a critical?, So what does he do then, pulls out his nade launcher and destroys you, gunner the same, sin can simply jump out and be back in a few seconds to wipe out your bots.

Taking out snipers headshot ability would absolutely 100% destroy his lane pushing ability, he would be a waste of space in the team, another gunner would be MUCH better, especially if there were no snipers around to make him watch his back, he can simply stomp down the lane with support in tow destroying EVERYTHING, bots, players, turrets, as long as they support hops around the sins long enough for slam to go down its all good.

Yes, the PS at the end of your post.

I don't see how its placement makes any difference, it sums you up wherever it is.

Let's keep personal attacks out of this, that's what locked the last couple threads. Keep it civil, guys, this is meant to be a mature discussion, not some shout match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EupHDRMaXMU

Edit: this assumption is simply not correct, especially not for balance concerns. They clearly stick out.

Sorry, it's nothing personal towards him, it's just a rule that has always stood me in good stead.

Person you're debating with brings up, no wait sorry, has a dig at "big words" making them a negative.

Waste
Of
Time.

I mean this

"a tank can take 5-6 bodyshots to kill, my clip only has 4 bullets, so what your suggesting is that, to kill a single player what i have to do is as follows:"

Highlights that he has in fact not even read what I said about it originally, if he had he would know what I said about clip size, which he doesn't.

What a waste of time.

An increase in clip size wouldnt really make any kills easier to get would it, we would still get very very few kills, infact the majority of our kills would be kill steals from others.

And these lack of kills and lack of damage means that any class would be able to step out into the lane, clear the snipers bots and get back into cover with genuinly 0 threat to themselves.

So no matter how clear you can keep the lane, your bots will also be kept clear, so your idea dosent work regardless of what you tweak unless you gave sniper an absolutely MASSIVE buff to RoF, which really WOULD make him OP.

While I'm not sure the sniper is imbalanced, I'd like to weigh in on the replacing headshots with stun thing. I don't think it would significantly help the sniper's team involvement, nor do I think it would keep him a viable pro killer. In addition, more elements that make people feel incapacitated and annoyed really aren't needed, in my opinion. It wouldn't make fighting against the sniper any more fun.

Out of the ideas stated so far, I think the one about having to wait for the actual scope in to have an accurate shot was the most reasonable. It would affect a very small subset of the playerbase(grimbar and such), and I highly doubt they would be unable to play sniper effectively after the change. Rate of fire nerfs aren't going to help anyone, and clip nerfs beyond what has been currently done are a little unreasonable.

I could also see the reload interval change working, though I wouldn't want both at once.

Going away and having a think I would say making a sniper headshot do 600 damage would be fine.

One shots those that need it, Assassins who have the most mobility and himself so he remains exactly the same in his mirror match even with gold armour, two headshots everything else.

Still does a massive chunk of damage with it still being a battle, how can you complain about outputting 600 damage at any range?

Could still definitely frag things and you could increase the clip size as well.

Meh.

Everything else simply sidesteps the issue that his main problem is a one shot kill imo.

On some maps sure. LazoRazor upper decks have a fairly bright background making them stick out. Spunky upper area is quite dark and they are significantly more difficult to spot, especially when going into an unknown placement. Attacking, I don't get the benefit of the area of effect spheres like you do, and can attempt to force me into unknown areas.

Besides, to avoid instant ice trap death I must miss all your traps while putting enough pressure to force difficult shots up close or a swap to SMG. With armor your survivability is quite high meaning more time to try to force an opponent into a bad spot and with the area denial capability of a sniper this becomes much easier when you control the terrain.

In general, the best way to kill a sniper is to just range him with mortars or grenades. Going in close is not a good idea. Or counter snipe.

Now we're getting somewhere. There's no magical easy fix. If one aspect of sniper gets nerfed, another aspect should be buffed to maintain that balance.

I've been saying that for months but hey at least some people finally acknowledge that there is no "easy" fix like some other people believe.