King of the Alpha

That is completely impractical and frankly ridiculous. It makes no sense to start a game with unfair spawns, play it out and then just say 'The spawns were unfair, rehost.' This actually gives a freeroll to whoever is in the worst position - if they win they get a free win and if they lose then they can just rehost and try again. That would actually promote choosing the worst possible spawn and free-rolling for a win because you can just ask for a rematch since spawns were unfair.

Good points. Comment rescinded.

To be honest this is starting to make my head spin... the information below needs a lot more attention to have all the details fleshed out completely. How are the regular ladder players finding ladder matches without referees? Are you ending up with a lot of questionable games there as well? I assume you must be..

Read on if you like but it's probably a waste of time
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So from what I can tell the aim here is to: Ensure the fairest possible game considering we're playing on a procedurally generated planet and to reduce as much as possible the amount of luck involved in the outcome while also giving away as little information as possible on opponents starting locations.


Option 1: Allow players to decide if they want a restart with no interference from a referee.

Pros:

• The game is entirely in the players hands, the result can not be altered by a third party.
• No subtle information is divulged because the game must restart on request.

Cons:

• A player is unaware of his opponents position and cannot know how favourable/unfavourable his position really is. Therefore a greater amount of chance is involved.
• Time could be wasted on restarts even when the game was actually fair.

Option 2: Allow players to decide if they want a restart, then the referee determines if it's warranted

Pros:

• Less time is wasted restarting matches than if there were no referee
• Players have a level of control of their own fate.

Cons:

• Subtle information is given by the act of this communication. If the game continues after a request to restart, players have a better idea of their opponents locations (But if you're then aware you're in similar positions maybe this isn't so bad because you're still on equal footing?)
• If no player speaks then they still might not be aware of how bad their position really is. The referee cannot interfere if this is the case.

Option 3: Allow players and the referee to call restarts. If a player calls a restart the game must restart, if the referee calls a restart the game must restart.

Pros:

• Both players and refs have control
• No information is divulged (other than you can assume it's fair) because games must restart on request

Cons:

• A lot of time could be wasted on unnecessary restarts
• The referee may call a restart when a player is content with their starting position and in a seemingly unfavorable position

Option 4: Players get no choice, they just play and the referee decides if the match is fair or not.

Pros:

• Very little information is divulged, other than you can assume your opponent is in a similar situation to you. (Similar to the con in option 2?)
• The referee has a greater understanding of the battlefield and how a game might result based on starting locations. (less luck involved)

Cons:

• The players aren't in control of their own fate. The referee may not be aware of a particular strategy a player/team has for picking a certain location.

Option 5: The referee can call a restart, and announces that player/team x has a disadvantage. Player x now has the choice on whether or not they want to continue or not.

Pros

• Players are in control of their own fate, albeit possibly spoiled a bit by the referee.

Cons

• The advantaged player now knows his opponent is in a weaker position and can act accordingly

I really don't think any discussion is necessary. For 1v1 no matter what strategy you are using it is beneficial to be in a fairer position than a weaker one. In 1v1 a player can not make nearly as much of an informed decision as a referee.

For 2v2 it is very complicated and involves a lot of variables. You can intentionally choose spawns you wouldn't because you have a safety net of a restart if the spawns are not fair. This allows you to spawn together to make strong double comm aggression rushes because it needs to be fair spawns. You can also have totally isolated spread out spawns because the risk of separating comms doesn't matter if the spawns must be fair.

2v2 fair spawn rules need to be fleshed out but this is not the thread to do it. The next 2v2 tournament will be in a totally different patch of the game that may render most of the 2v2 spawn discussion null and void.

That's a huge time waste and is bound to create conflicts after the game.

The prince and princess of the alpha, perhaps?

If people play safe they should scout first. Not incorporating scouting into their build means that they are susceptible to com rushes and raiding. They are gambling by not scouting. Not scouting is greedy. Scouting is typically something that requires you to invest resources in order to know what the enemy is up to. It is a trade between intel and economy.
Although if players started with a scout they wouldn't have to make that trade right at start. Could be possible once the egg is implemented.

ColaColin responded poorly. He didn't send his commander right away and didn't run away with his fabbers. Bot fabbers are after all much faster than a commander.

The question is just how early should players to be forced to scout? With the current spawns you basically have to build an airfactory asap and a make a scout as your first unit if following your line of argumentation. Imho that's an annoying limitation of what players "should" do at the start of the game. Giving players a scout from the beginning sounds like a nice idea.

I may have made mistakes, but even reacting faster in exactly that way would have put me in an extreme disadvantage. Your commander was basically destroying my whole economic development, as my eco was supposed to be build where your commander ended up by mere chance, while your base was happily growing.
I generally don't think having a random condition in the game that can lead to a "game over" after less than 5 minutes is good. Interesting games usually take longer than 5 minutes to begin with.

We should set up a tournament on a 10 radius map so godde can be happy. Wouldn't mind but he a great player when he isnt ruining games.

Well I am not going to make it in this tournament, so obviously you'll all have to decide for yourselves. But honestly, if there is going to be a "King of the Alpha", shouldn't he/she be just that, and not "King of the Alpha But With Modified Rules to Make It More Fair and Balanced Like Beta Will Hopefully Be?"

It seems to me that luck is an element of all games. It is for the devs to reduce luck if they so choose, or for them to put in place more options to reduce luck if the players so desire. But for now, isn't it part of the game?

This is going to be easyyyy, cya in the finals

I could agree with this as it would make things a hell of a lot simpler, but it seems a bit of manipulation of the rules is the best way to have interesting matches.

So as I cannot see any real advantage to do things one way or another, I'm sticking with how we've been doing it as that's been working "ok". I'd love to see you joining in regardless Godde, I don't see you in the lineup yet and the tournament will be locked off in about 12 hours.

Whether or not I win, can my title be "Drama Queen of the Alpha"? Or does that title go to Nanolathe?

I got dibs on "PA Prophet".

Mike

Well you definitely wont have a chance of winning unless you sign up

Not sure what title I'd like to take.. "PA Tournament Conductor"?

my title would me PA Boomer...because i am spamming forums when i want people to join

whats the radius of the planet the tourney is on?

Good question! I'll have to come up with some settings tonight. They'll probably be about neptunia sized planets.. whatever that is.

I say 21

THIS SHOULD BE THE FIRST MAP!!! I call it Cricket Ball!!!! HAHAHAH >:}
Biome:Eart
Seed:16955
Radius:21
Height:50
Water:38
Temp:16