Juice Chaining

Who did say that? I never did. I was making a general statement as to why the two are related.

Bleh, good players will adapt well before they are forced to. In my book, if there are plenty of reasonable counters to an in game mechanic, it is fine. (The health glitch needs to be fixed.)

Proper adaption to that situation would reduce the amount of kills a juice chainer pulls off. Without enough kills, he can't feed his juice cycle.

Have you ever stopped a rush juice chainer right out of the gate? He is DONE for the next few mins of the game.

If something happens less frequently, then it is less of a problem. You don't hear anyone complaining about how often people defecate in the middle of the road.

Said perfectly.

Don't get me wrong heiro, I'm not attacking you or anything. I just simply disagree.
Most of the stuff you list is only an "exploit" in your eyes.

All it takes is one good ringout or grapple to break a players omgwtfbbq juice cycle
(And has been pointed out many times, simply push out early in the game and prevent them from ever building juice/money in the first place.)

Things I agree with-
The refilling health does need to be fixed
Supports gain juice too quickly for no effort

Read what I write before putting words in my mouth. Also, get my name right.

You are clouding the issue. He never once said broken in his explanation until you introduced it, moving the discussion off of what was relevant and on to a different topic.

Implication is as good as saying it, again you are clouding the issue away from what is important.

Strawman. Also, your definition of "reasonable" was very, very suspect.

Reasonable chance. Just because it can be stopped does not mean it reasonably will even 50% of the time.

I think I'm just going to ignore the feedback forums from now on. We are seriously to the point where perfectly acceptable counters to juice are ignored because the player base is not skilled enough to perform very basic functions in the game. I have no argument if we take skill/teamwork out of the equation.

Fix the health regen, maybe add an incremental cost in juice. I think it would be fine.

I'll adapt however I need to.

Carry on.

its hard to use teamwork if none of yor team talks. even though you party up all the time with a few other guys, doesnt mean that everyone does. just because its a solution for your scenario doesnt mean it works for everyone, or even a majority of other people.

My point is they SHOULD in a team based game.

Refusal to team is refusal to adapt, IMO.

I started this game with 2 friends. I came on the forums to find my group.

To me, it sounds like this tom fellow wants the win handed to him on a silver platter. I mean lets look at it from a real sport, say football. Lets say you and your buddies are on a flag football in a fun league. You play against another team that is calling out audible, watching your team for weaknesses and begins to win. So what do you do, to you go crying to the ref to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to come up with strategies, or do you and your team start talking to each other and making a better plan?

You make a better plan, sure you are just playing for fun, but it is more fun to be competent than to just show up. Same thing in this game. You see someone rushing for juice, kill them after they buy it, then they just wasted $500. Better yet, ring out them if you have the chance. Be aware of your surroundings, play with your head on a swivel. And talk to your team mates. There is nothing wrong with using the rules and tools available in the game to win, that is why you are losing.

I can't speak for the others in here, but i don't like juice Chaining not because it's "unbalanced" or "broken" or anything, like it's been said there are counters to it.

But it undeniably makes the game BORING.

As an assault on grenade III most of the time I can juice chain. After the first few times though it gets really boring; rush into their base, chew folks up and then get more juice... there's no challenge to that. If I didn't get money from juiced activities I'd have to build up my money again by playing the game on even ground against the other team instead of being able to juice whenever I'm in a fix. Granted if i can juice chain in the first place then the opposition isn't too challenging, but it's still more of a challenge (and more fun) dealing with them sans-juice for the most part.

On the other side it's also pretty boring either having to sit in your base WAITING for a juicer to come in so you can waste his juice or spending your time desperately trying to kill bots dying time after time because the sniper on the other team gains juice after 3 shots.

I'm totally fine with calling it boring and wanting to change it for that reason.

I have issue with people saying it is imbalanced/game breaking/broken.

Agreed. If I want to spend most of the game farming bots for juice then it's not problem for me to get juice constantly, but it's not a whole lot of fun. The exception is when I'm playing a game where there are multiple good players on the other team, and no decent players on my team. Incidentally, this is my favorite sort of match, and will be going for juice quite often as that's the only way I can be expected to win the match by myself.

Okay, I don't know about everyone else, but when I juice chain, I focus on turrets before I do anything else. Juice makes it very easy to destroy turrets, which would be fine if it was fairly difficult to get it. It could be used as the final push to get your bots into the opposing base. It's a problem when you can make this push frequently. I know there are plenty of ways to counter juice, and I don't think that juice itself is broken. I don't even think it makes the game boring (perhaps one sided or not newb friendly). But the fact that juice chaining makes turrets obsolete is definitely a reason to at least consider changing the buying mechanic of juice.

I've probably said this like four times by now in this thread, but everyone keeps focusing on the balance of juice, which you've all spent 10 pages not reaching a conclusion on. When the juice chainer focuses on turrets, and avoids contact with pros, it makes an issue. It's not broken persay, but it's even more difficult to stop than a traditional juice chaining. And if done right, even preventing it won't stop your turrets from being destroyed.

I play assassin, and we all know that they can get juice very quickly. When I get it, the next thing I reach towards is destroying all of the opposing base's defenses. It's actually pretty easy to do and leave that team at a distinct disadvantage early in the game, both because their loss of defenses and wasted money on level 3 laser blasters.

We can spend forever on the balance of juice, but is it arguable that juice chaining makes turrets a waste of time and money? Before you answer that question, think about whether or not you buy turrets, and if you do how long they last during the course of a game. I know I personally don't buy turrets anymore, and I think it makes my money allocating that much better.

In any decent match I would expect most turrets on both sides to be destroyed multiple times. At $175, I don't really have a problem dropping the money on a level 3 lazerblazer without expecting it to last forever. Just because a turret gets destroyed it doesn't mean that whatever it accomplished beforehand didn't make it worth the purchase, even if it was just a damage sponge.

This.

I stop people from juicing our base turrets all the time.
I love to see some cocky sin try to juice sxd's base.
They might get one turret before respawning most of the time.

Gold skill recharge tank has enough CC to stop a juicer 1v1. Just add team mates, and listen to the rage.

There is a quick match option. Does it require having friends partied up with you before you can join a game? Do you think someone who first buys this game on a whim is going to have a 6 man party ready to go? Its possible, but highly unlikely.

Anyways, back to the issue at hand. Juice chaining. It is way too easy to do. It requires MUCH more effort to stop it than to start it. It leads to another issue, which is spawn camping. Do these things make the game more fun? If you honestly believe so, then answer with your reasoning. If you don't, should something that does not add more fun, especially to newcomers to the game, exist?

So if the Tank is not in position to handle the incoming juicer what happens? If the team does not have a Tank, what happens? A Tank can easily be killed by a juicer so even the ability to handle a juicer does not mean that they will.
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Also, $175 is the cost of only the LazerBlazer, none of the other turrets are that inexpensive. Why include the other three turret types at all? Can you afford to lose $525? $700? $1,400? See where this is going? The entire focus of MNC, a turret-based third-person shooter is gone. So much for those comparisons to DotA, it's nothing but Quake with bots.

The sniper also has the facilities to take on a juicer 1 v 1, and any class with a knockback has at least a chance. At the very least they can be grappled and slowed down. I'm not even sure what the argument here is, but my point is that a juiced up pro is far from unstoppable, and pretty much any team should have the resources, if not the skill.

Any turret can be worth the money in the right situation. I just used the LaserBlazer as an example because they're a good choice in pretty much any situation. Long shots depend on how well your team is pushing, a shave ice is almost always worth it in the right spot, and rockets have pretty decent health and damage for $200, but I would only upgrade from there if there's a decent support maintaining the base.

I certainly don't expect turrets to last the whole match, especially a laser turret. I guess that was a bad example.

When someone makes it to the juice chaining point, it won't matter how much your turrets can do before being destroyed, because the turret won't last long enough to do anything. Even a level 3 rocket turret can be destroyed in a few seconds with juice.

Also, any assassin worth her blade will be wary of any pros with the potential to stop them, and avoid them completely. Out of sight, out of mind. The pros shouldn't even be aware of the destruction if you do your job right. Besides, people aren't generally in the base to begin with, so there probably won't even be anyone stopping them. Most pros have a long range weapon that is very capable of destroying turrets from a distance that players won't see coming; add juice to the equation and you'll have a problem.

I've got a feeling I'm going to be called a noob or something because of what I'm saying, so I'm going to say flat out that I do not have a team of friends when I play. I'll only have my brother, if that (he doesn't play that often, and he's not that good anyway), and I only play randoms. I do generally get a high rank when I play (like 1st or 2nd), and not by kills. I'm guilty of juice chaining with assault, assassin, support, and tank, and I always focus on turrets when I juice.

Im Hudson and BoltAktion, do you guys buy turrets at all?

Yeah, and this too.

Can I just say I play solo 90% of the time and I do fine. Being with a team isn't needed but it is recommended.