Juice Chaining

Are you seriously arguing that the game shouldn't be balanced around teams being equally matched?

Not at all. My comment was directed towards the fact that without proper playlists and skill matching the party system only promotes unbalanced teams. If a team of four 99s is in a party together and they get two randoms what are the chances that the game will be populated with another party of four 99s? In most cases the game simply populates with the first players available and the opposing team is often full of guests and low level players.

As for juice chaining, until the game balances parties and players based upon skill, or at least level, the issue remains balancing juice. Sure, in an ideal world with properly balanced teams the juice chaining problem would not be an issue, but until that is fixed the problem becomes juice being overpowered and too easy to acquire. In a way it is impossible to fix one without fixing the other so hopefully we see slight changes to juice along with a better balacing system or playlists.

My point was to say that balance is not simply about player skill as there will always be lower level players that are better than higher level ones for example so adjusting juice is almost mandatory at this point.

Just wanted to jump in the thread and throw my two cents in that juice chaining is most definitely not good for the game. The reasons it is bad has been beaten to death in the thread, however, so I am not going to revisit the reasons.

Lets talk possible solutions (any of these could be viable on their own, imo):

1) Juice dispenser put on a cool down timer after a pro buys juice for that pro.
2) Each time a pro juices, juice effects are decreased compared to the previous juicing.
3) Juice costs for a pro increase each time juice is bought by that pro.
4) Hard cap on number of times a player can juice in a match.
5) Pros don't earn money while they are juiced.
6) Cool down timer on juicing after a pro juices.

I personally like 2, 5, or, 6 as solutions to the current problem.

I think I might actually create a thread describing the pros and cons of each solution with a poll asking which solution people like best.

You start that thread yet? I would love to discuss the pros/cons of each and see what the general consensus of the forum would be. As it stands right now there are so many exploits to gain juice quickly that the game is becoming less and less fun as it is basically TDM with quad damage and armor that heals you when you take damage.

What is your definition of exploit? I can only think of one class that MIGHT currently be exploiting something for juice gain.

I've tested a few of the reported methods on these forums and the Tank Deploy in front of a turret is among the worst offenders. The melee attack is cheap and easy to exploit on some maps due to line-of-sight restrictions, especially once the other team is turtled. The Support with Gold RoF is fast as well and on certain maps with restricted line-of-sight it allows the Support to juice once a minute. The Sniper's explosive rounds are simply broken. There are others but these are the ones to which I am the most familiar.

Sure these are not exploits in the sense that they are allowing the player to do something not allowed, but they are exploits as they greatly provide an advantage to a team that knows how to use them properly. They all exploit a game mechanic to allow for faster Juice gain.

I was going to but then realized I can't make polls.

Gonna create the thread tomorrow with pros and cons listed. Is it sad that I have more time at work to post on forums than anywhere else?

I think I just take issue with the usage of the word exploit, especially since the melee and tank deploy are among the most dangerous ways to gain juice in the game.

Pretty much EVERYTHING IN THE GAME provides great advantage with proper usage.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these are easy to use or simple to setup but if done correctly they provide an unfair advantage. Almost every game has many exploits that become common but that does not make them any less of an exploit.

The reason I have the Tank's Deploy listed is because it is not linear based upon damage taken. So while using this method against a RockIt turret provide minimal juice gain, using it against a LazerBlazer provides a huge juice gain almost instantly. Thus it exploits the method in which Deploy allows the Tank to gain juice.

The rest use similar methods to exploit the process of gaining juice.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.
They are not exploits in the least.
What you are describing is players with full and or advanced knowledge of the in game mechanics using them to their full potential to gain an edge.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

If a tank wants to take the risk and deploy in our base in front of a lvl3 lazer turret, he damn well deserves to be fed juice. Not that he will get to use it against any halfway competent team.

I'm kinda seeing a trend tbh heiro, you seem to make a post about changing/nerfing anything and everything you have trouble with in game.
My advice? Adapt.

I seem to remember you doing this a few times as well. There is a reason that the straw man is considered a logical fallacy. Attacking his skill does not negate or lessen some of the arguments he has brought up, even if you do not agree with them. If there are legitimate problems with his reasoning, bring that up, there is no need to say this.

His point was that because the Tank mechanic is based on how many times you are hit, it improperly gains more juice even though you are not necessarily taking more damage. While I might not go so far as to say it is an exploit, his reasoning is sound that there is a problem.

But I digress, as this thread is slowly edging towards being completely off topic. Someone posted earlier (I believe it was Ninja Wallace) saying that the parameters required to start chain juicing do not happen that often. That is not true. I personally could chain juice in 95% of the matches I play in, but I choose not to because I feel it lessens the fun for everyone else in the match with me. There are players I have played with who legitimately could do it 100% of the time. While the argument remains that two skilled players can try to prevent each other from doing this, I feel that it changes the crux of the game. Instead of pushing bot lanes, it comes down to who can get first legitimate juice and who can farm enough money to set up the chain. I feel this is perverting what is legitimately fun about the game. If you disagree, feel free to explain how chain juicing adds more fun to the game.

Funny how I suggest adjusting almost everything then, even the classes I play the most. I can exploit any of the things I list just as well as anyone else but I will admit when a mechanic is broken. Balance is not about adapting.

Not all exploits are harmful either. Some are simple tricks (advanced techniques?) that require an intimate knowledge of how to manipulate the way the game handles a specific mechanic. You are still exploiting the way the game's code handles that situation though.

Some exploits cannot be avoided however. In these cases they become something that the advanced players learn to use on a regular basis. BXB in Halo, wall-walking in MechAssault, reload canceling in MW2, etc. That does not mean that they are not exploiting the game's code. At least I can see the forest through the trees.

How is this improper? The "gain juice by taking damage " function is exclusive to two things: Deploy Skills, and taunting. When you deploy and taunt, you CANNOT MOVE. Every hard to aim skill in the game? Gone. You are a guaranteed hit by any number of airstikes, headcrabs, headshots, pancakes, and full clips of crit S-Launchers. You take a HUGE risk to deploy infront of a turret in the enemy base. The benifit? You gain juice for every attack done to you. It is risk/reward, and hardly easy to pull off unless the other team is asleep at the wheel.

"But it should be proportional to the damage done to you." Why? Because you think it makes more sense? It is equally if not more so reasonable that deploying to tank damage for juice is so risky that uber needed to give people an incentive to actually do it.

Well said. It is sad that juicing causes so many problems in sports, from MLB to MNC. Add to this all the methods to get that first juice and the game degrades quickly after that. As so many others have already stated juice should be a reward and I agree. The problem is that juice has become so common that if you are not juicing every 90 seconds or better you are doing something wrong.

Refusal to adapt to a game causes people to consider otherwise fine mechanics/tactics that have a laundry list of reasonable preventative measures to be broken.

Refusal to adapt skews the perception of what is balanced.

Refusal to adapt is generally user error. (Practical) Impossibility of adaptation is when things are likely to actually be "broken".

They are undeniably related.

You sound like the exact player on MW2 that used the infinite Air Drop glitch and then claimed how it was high risk/reward since you could be killed and have the other team take all of those items.

The bottom line is that you can gain a full juice bar inside of 6 seconds by deploying, taking damage, throwing a product grenade, undeploying and juicing. How does that sound balanced in the least? Let me guess, you leave the turret unharmed so you can try it again too?

I have no problem with gaining juice while deployed but it should not promote this type of strategy and I'm 100% positive that Uber did not intend this either. It is game-breaking in every way regardless of how much effort it takes to properly execute. Even you have to see the problem when you can fill your juice bar that quickly.

Who said I ever refused to adapt? Now you are making stuff up to try and win an argument that you cannot support. I can exploit any of these mechanics but balance requires managing all of these exploits, fixing the ones that are not intended, and then compensating for or adjuting that ones that cannot be fixed.

Only when something is unable to be fixed are the players forced to adapt fully. The rest of the time they are simply adapting to the current system. Just because the players have adapted does not mean that the system is currently balanced however.

Take Juice Chaining as an example. We know that Juice turns the player into an almost unstopable force and given the glitch with health regeneration they cannot be killed in some circumstances. So now you add in the mechanic where the players can easily earn enough money to repurchase juice again and again. How is this balanced? Players can adapt to the broken mechanic but that does not mean it is balanced in any way. Again, balance is not about adapting.

EDIT: Fixed for clarity.

Except that its not like that at all, since you could do it in really low traffic/highly protected allied areas of the map, and losing a care package to the other team does not mean jack when you can drop 15 more. Not to mention one is obviously unintended while the other is merely assumed (i've NEVER heard this referred to as a glitch/exploit outside of you and SouthSox, and personally, i've never even SEEN this be done successfully.)

Because all of that requires the other team to be absolutely retarded to let it happen. Seriously. I've yet to ever see this actually occur in a game. I tell you what, I should not knock it until I try it. I will play tonight with the sole intention of using this strat. I'lll let you know how broken I think it is.


Aside: How often have you
-Done this?
-Had this done to you?

If I may answer...Never. I also play at least 5-6 hours a day.

So if an exploit has a low chance of success it becomes less of an exploit and more legitimate? There have been times when I enter an enemy base and don't see anyone. There have been times when a LazerBlazer is right around the corner and not being protected. Just because the frequency of an issue is small does not make it any less of an issue.

By that same logic spawn-camping should never occur but it does. Now imagine if you combine the two. I just tested it this afternoon and didn't get to play much due to the after-school crowd dropping every single game. I'll give it a try and get back to you though.